Holding up a cingulum with segmentata

[Crispvs]

Well, I can't think of any relevant sculptures which are carved in the round so it is not possible to know how things were arranged at the back, forcing us to make assumptions based on what we can see from the front. It is impossible therefore to rule out the idea of belting over the rear strap of the baldric but then again there is no evidence to support such a practice either. There are sculptures though which show baldrics worn without waist belts, meaning that (assuming the sculptors knew what they were depicting, which does seem likely given their contexts) the Romans do not seem to have seen the need to secure the baldric by passing a belt across either of the straps. Accordingly, I stopped wearing my belt over my baldric over five years ago and have found no problems with this arrangement. It felt strange the first time but after that (especially once I had shortened the baldric somewhat) I quickly became comfortable with it and find it no harder to draw and re-sheath my sword than before.

Sorry to have dragged this a little OT.

Crispvs

[Magnus]

I'll have to try it this year.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Well, even Trajan's Column is varied considering the wearing of the Balteus.



http://people.cohums.ohio-state.edu/rose...n%203.jpeg









As well as on the plate count of the plates having loops :



Though imho it leans to the balteus being on the second plates loops, not the ones without them ....


M.VIB.M.

[Marcus Mummius]

Hi Matt,

We used the patterns from the Legio XX site too for the plates. Our lacing loops are hammered from rods and not folded sheet, but that's besides the questions.

I believe the difference may lay in the flexibility of the torso part. If the leathering inside the girdle hoops is flexible enough and the girdleplates are thin enough (we make these from thinner iron sheet than the shoulder and chestparts) the plates compress a bit more underneath the belt than the plates above and under the belt. This way you get a tiny fraction of a waist while wearing the seg and the belt isn't prone to slide down.

As for the location to wear the balteus, I prefer the third plate (the first one with lacing loops), but others in my group put it on the second last plate.
In my experience, if you put it on the third plate you will have a stronger 'waist-effect' because the two lower plates aren't closed as firmly as the ones with loops.

Perhaps this might be a solution?

Vale,
Falco

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

I also thought that since the bottom two plates have no lacing loops, the balteus should go over the second plate from the bottom. The imagery from the TC seem to support this idea.

I think many of the reenactors' baltei are way too heavy since they use cast plates instead of stamped ones. I am making a belt with light stamped plates and will see how that works out.

[mcbishop]

The imagery from the TC seem to support this idea.

Well, if it's on TC it must be true ;-) ...just like the segmentata inscribed with mail patterns...

Mike Bishop

[Gaius Colletti]

Maybe so, but it would also run counter to the evidence, such as it is.
http://www.romanarmy.net/artweapons.htm

With all do respect Paul, the artists who carved the reliefs had not even apparently seen a set of Lorica Segmentata for the most part they seem to be horribly inaccurate. At the same token, I do not have any evidence to support the balteus being held firmly up by the baldric, other than it helps me when I draw my sword with one hand to hold my scabbard back (my scabbard has quite a tighter fit than most)

[caiusbeerquitius]

I think many of the reenactors' baltei are way too heavy since they use cast plates instead of stamped ones.

And with way too many plates, anyway. Good for the merchants, though... ;-)

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Talking about mail shirts which look special.. Anyone seen the Hamata shown in Ancient Warfare magazine this week ? On which the shoulder doublings are covered with painted leather ? Never seen such a thing, not even on reliefs...

M.VIB.M.

[Crispvs]

"With all do respect Crispvs, the artists who carved the reliefs had not even apparently seen a set of Lorica Segmentata for the most part they seem to be horribly inaccurate."

Nowhere in my article did I cite Trajan's Column as evidence for what I said. In the case of the column it is quite possible, even probable, that you are right.

However, equipment shown on the 1st century AD Rhineland stones often reflects finds from the archaeological record very closely, suggesting that there was a high degree of empirical observation by the sculptors, who are likely to have seen soldiers on a regular basis.

The Mainz column bases, although rather cartoon-like in their execution, were originally part of a building in a military base, which gives them some credence and furthermore, they again show a knowledge of equipment, as well as fighting methods.

The Adamklissi metopes are from a monument commemorating Trajan's Dacian campaigns, which is more or less contemporary with Trajan's column but which (unlike TC) was made in the area where the army was actually operating. Although the depiction is very stylised, again, these sculptures demonstrate a knowledge of equipment on the part of the sculptors.

It is true that none of these sculptures can be conclusively shown to show segmentata, but then, segmentata is virtually invisible in the sculptural record on the first century anyway. Trajan's column is the earliest place we really see it and we know we cannot trust anything we see on the column. To suggest though that the sculptors of the Rhineland stones, the Mainz bases and the Adamklissi metopes had never seen the equipment they were depicting, would be very wide of the mark, I think.

Crispvs

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

The imagery from the TC seem to support this idea.

Well, if it's on TC it must be true ;-) ...just like the segmentata inscribed with mail patterns...

Mike Bishop

No, I did not say it was true because it is so on TC. I said TC supported this idea. You don't seem to dispute it either, "Upper five or six fastened by copper-alloy tie-loops, lowest two left free," M. C. Bishop, Lorica Segmentata I: A Handbook of Articulated Roman Plate Armour, p. 31.

[Gaius Colletti]

Nowhere in my article did I cite Trajan's Column as evidence for what I said. In the case of the column it is quite possible, even probable, that you are right.

I wasn't referring to TC at all, just that I have seen so many reliefs and sculptures that are very inconsistent with archaeological finds. I have a hard time taking any sculptural depictions as complete "canon". They are useful and helpful insight, but their specific credibility of dead on depictions has too many flaws with archaeological findings. That is just my opinion, and I am not trying to force it on anyone.

[Magnus]

I wasn't referring to TC at all, just that I have seen so many reliefs and sculptures that are very inconsistent with archaeological finds. I have a hard time taking any sculptural depictions as complete "canon". They are useful and helpful insight, but their specific credibility of dead on depictions has too many flaws with archaeological findings. That is just my opinion, and I am not trying to force it on anyone.

If you are expecting finite, detailed sculptures that mirror what is found in the ground, you simply are not going to get it. I am not sure if anyone has ever stated that they use sculpture only when deducing something about equipment. All the evidence needs to be weighed.

But I think your perception of what sculpture is used for is misconstrued.

[Paul Elliott]

There's an old thread covering this, it helped me. I used simple leather loops instered up between the plates, hanging around each leather strap. They form belt loops. If not needed they can be tugged out of sight. When needed, the balteus is fed through them. Work a treat, inexpensive, invisible, using material at hand to a legionary.

My hips aren't as wide as the bottom of my segmentata, so they do not stop a belt once it decides to go 'south'. I can't imagine the legion tailor made its segmetata to each new recruit, I imagine there was quite a bit of similar improvisation.

[Magnus]

Good point Mithras. "Make it fit" was likely the phrase of the day when equipment was issued amongst the ranks. The leather thongs work great.