greek aspis

[Dan Howard]

Were slaves not used in factories to make shields? I have read a shield maker "Lysias" employed 120(?) slaves in his factory, is this actually making the shields, or doing ancillary tasks? If unskilled slaves are making shields, what was the quality of the items they were knocking out?

How is this relevant? Why would there be a difference in the quality of work done by a slave, a bonded servant, or a free labourer being paid the lowest wages possible? You'll find that just about all manual labour was conducted by one of these three groups of workers.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Actually the use of many slaves is a point towards high standard and systematic jobs. Surely the 120 slaves weren't the skilled wood-workers and metal-workers that were required for the task. Because indeed the skill required to reproduce-say- the vatican shield is great. It seems more logical that the slaves were used as the "machinery" so that the artist,the shield maker could concentrate on the high tasks (it shoud have also been a matter of status). To me the use of many slaves means professional job,where each one in the workshop knew his place and his specific task that would have wasted the valuable time of the skilled master.
There were of course differences in the qualities of shields. But by definition,a hoplite had to be able to buy his shield. A man with no money for a proper shield couldn't have had the status to fight among the phalanx ranks. This is pretty clear. What was the higher quality shields? Well,Alkibiades had a guilded one,for instance!
Khairete
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

Also, shields like the Vatican aspis were turned on a lathe. This not only makes mass production simpler, but helps to generate uniform quality.

[Astiryu1]

Are there any pictures or diagrams on this lathe or similar ones? Any archeological lathes from Greece that are noteworthy?
I would love to build one!!!

Also,
How did the Greeks solve the problem of making the bronze shield covering?
Did they Cast it or hammer it out?

I talked to a local metal shop guy (machinist not blacksmith) and the problems of hammering it out seem very complicated and casting off of a mold would be much easier.

[Macedon]

Guys.. do not forget that slaves could be highly trained and sometimes very important people in their trades. A Greek slave might be anything from an Ethiopian boy to a Milesian master craftsman, I guess that in the thousands of slaves sold after successful wars, at least some would have been top notch... An enslaved Greek tutor in a Roman homestead would also be highly trained...

[Astiryu1]

I have always thought that such a slave would be a valued commodity to a craftsman or city official dealing with production of shields or other military related product. It would make sense to find these types and set them aside from the rest as they are skilled.

[PMBardunias]

Are there any pictures or diagrams on this lathe or similar ones? Any archeological lathes from Greece that are noteworthy?
I would love to build one!!!

If you build one let me know, because I will drive to Punta Gorda to help you make some aspides! I looked into building a lathe, and there is information online on how to do so. Buying one of the right size is prohibitively expensive. There are a couple of links one here showing the process by people who did lathe aspides.

Also,
How did the Greeks solve the problem of making the bronze shield covering?
Did they Cast it or hammer it out?

they are so thin that casting is probably unlikely. The skill needed to hammer one out- especially where they turn back over the rim of the shield without any wrinkles- is impressive. The Greeks used metal lathes to make helmets such as the pilos helm, so I wonder if the shield face could be lathed over an aspis dome-form?

[Astiryu1]

It would be human powered if I did build one. I like to work out and it's cheaper to build. 1 large wheel (crank), one small wheel (shaft) and an A-frame should get basic construction underway but I need the mounting of the wooden blank somehow and this is where I get lost. I assume these lathes if they existed in Greece were designed specifically for the Aspis. I already have some socketed chisels but need to know what ones were used by Greeks if possible. I would use 2x4's as I am a competent house framer and know the material well. Maybe some metal supports would strengthen so the constant movement didn't shake it apart. I will look online at period lathes of the Middle Ages but a Classical Greek lathe would be better if I could find it.

[Athena Areias]

Check out the topic "Turned Greek Aspis in Progress". It has sunk to page 8 in the Greek Military History and Archaeology forum (this one). It has lots of pictures to help you. The lathe is horizontal, but the chucks and attachments would be the same. 2X4's won't give you enough depth to work with. I used rough cut 2x6's planed down before the glue steps. Good luck!

[PMBardunias]

Cheryl, your aspis is beautiful. How thick is the shield face?

[Athena Areias]

The middle of the dome is slightly less than 1 inch (25mm), I think. I don't have a tool to measure... There are also the two leather facings to add to the thickness - say another 1/4 " (6+mm).

[PMBardunias]

The middle of the dome is slightly less than 1 inch (25mm)

I asked because most aspis reconstructions are too thick. Do you have Blyth's paper on the Vatican aspis? That aspis's face is only 5-6mm thick, thickening to 8mm near the center of the dome- the side walls where the dome turns being more than twice as thick. He estimayes that due to shrinkage they were 25-30% thicker when made, but that is still only 7-9 mm for much of the face. The bronze face was only around 0.5 mm thick- substantially thinner than helmets of the day. He estimates the whole thing at 6.2 kg (13.5 lbs), 3 kg of which is the complete bronze face which could be just a rim in many aspides. This is not the bulky shield that most envision it to be.

I have not done it, but I imagine it takes some skill, and probably special tools, to lathe a bowl that wide to such thinness without damaging it.

I can send you the paper if you haven't gotten it yet.

[Athena Areias]

Thanks for the offer. I'll pass for right now - no time for extra reading (sigh).

We were going for 1/2" (12.5mm) thickness with the original plans, but the tools started to chatter too much near the interior center. Eric used a japanese saw to cut the "mushroom stem" from the blank. The interior was very flat. I hand sanded it down from there. I was afraid to take too much out. I now know I could have kept going...

[Paullus Scipio]

Check out the topic "Turned Greek Aspis in Progress". It has sunk to page 8 in the Greek Military History and Archaeology forum (this one). It has lots of pictures to help you. The lathe is horizontal, but the chucks and attachments would be the same. 2X4's won't give you enough depth to work with. I used rough cut 2x6's planed down before the glue steps. Good luck!

...The original Greek lathes are believed to have been horizontal, and were apparently also used for carving out large lyre bowls ( there is a quotation to that effect),

The bronze layer was indeed hammered on, as Paul B. recounts. There was a groove around the bowl of the shield, where the rim joins the bowl, and hammering the facing sheet into the grove allowed 'stretching' of the facing and facilitated a good tight fit......

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Something that would be interesting is to examine in the surviving wooden rims -those few that exist- for traces of burning or something similar. Turning the bronze inwards would require quite a bit of annealing while the wooden core was already in,no? That should leave traces,no? I can't think of another way to do it,and even this looks impossible to me. The modern reconstructions with bronze covers or rims have as a rule a very small part that is being turned in,and even that is not so smoothe as the ancient ones. In the Vatican shield it is about 4 cm!
Khairete
Giannis