Cleaning mail.

[Paullus Scipio]

Hello,
When I was in a unit that had a lot of mail we used to rent a small cement mixer. we'd put the mail and some sand in and turn it on. I'd go drink a beer and come back and they were done.

...which also works for me ! A variation on this is to place mail shirt in sack/heavy bag, and 'tumble dry' in the family washing machine until clean/rust free, without the sand ( though this would not remove oil ).............

I find it pays to do this while one's wife /housekeeper is out shopping though............ :wink: :wink:

[john m roberts]

I used to tumble mine in the family dryer, with no sand. Just cut up some old towels and throw pieces in with the mail. From time to time, take out the old rags and throw in fresh ones. At first, the rags will come out black. Then they'll be dingy gray. When the rags come out almost clean (they'll never be really clean), it's done. The oil and rust will be gone and the mail will sparkle. Warning: This method is very noisy.

[jvrjenivs]

I have decided to avoid the oil problem altogether by ordering a Tinned hamata!

How is your experience with these? I can imagine the tin will be cleaned away from the shirt during usage. And secondly, do we have sources for the use of these?

[Lýsandros]

I have no experience with tin, but I have two zinced chainmails. They are slightly less shiny, at least initially and they tend to color anything that touches it with fine zinc powder. This will however cease after a time and the color will settle down to a believable one. It does not rust at all - wherever you store it, you can be sure it will be in good condition. You can revert the mail to its original condition if you use all the cleaning techniques from above, especially in a small cement mixer.

[Dan Howard]

Industrial strength washing machine!

Dan, I was just reading the dura report, and there is a direct quote about the use of a subarmalis, whether it was called such, I
won't put my neck out, but seems there is some source reference to it.

IIRC there was at least one mail sample at Dura Europos with a liner. I think it was felt. It might have been the Sasanian example rather than one of the Roman ones though.

[Doc]

The publication on Lorica Hamata Squamata by Erik Schmid describes one LHS from Turkery where dyed linen was used to line the interior of the armor. I know that it is not a hamata per se however, it shows that liners were used with mail type armors.

[jkaler48]

I have decided to avoid the oil problem altogether by ordering a Tinned hamata!

How is your experience with these? I can imagine the tin will be cleaned away from the shirt during usage. And secondly, do we have sources for the use of these?

I have not see a tinned Hamata. There is tinned scale armor in use. Helmets belts weapons scabbards all have original tinned examples so a tinned Hamata was certainly a possibility but perhaps uncommon due to the extra expense. If it wears well it would make it more likely to have been used than if the tinning doesn't last. Silvered would be nice to test also
when I win a lottery.

[Doc]

How do you propose to tin or silver a hamata and be/look authentic? It would require dipping in a vat-yes? That would be the most likely way the Romans would have done it since they did not have electroplating. I doubt that they would have wiped or brushed on a hot metal. Let alone melt the coating metal directly on a hamata. In modern times any metal to metal coating is not a problem. However, I cannot see a hamata with 5-6mm ID rings being dunked into hot molten metal. When the metal would cool, the whole thing would look like a clump since the molten metal would occupy all gaps created by the mail. I am not saying the Romans did not tin mail since they liked to tin and silver everything else. However, all the things you mentioned John, are not porous surfaces rather quite flat. Even Pompeii scabbards with their two-tone decoration have the tin or silver applied on a flat surface.

John McDermott, I beileve, has a mail shirt that was made for him by Erik Schmid and subsequently tin plated. Maybe he can shed some light.

IMHO, I think that eventually, the tin on the inner surface that touches the body, would be rubbed off since it will only be microns thick in which case the shirt has to be treated again. The other possibility is that upon a quick visual inspection, the silver or tin may be present on the surface of a link but some rust areas, especially small, can be hidden and not spotted; it looks shiny and silvery thus should be OK. For instance, a link may appear perfectly coated on its surface, but the tin could have worn off at the sides where the links rub and be difficult to see given the proxmity of the other links. This would give rise to a localized rust spot that can get worse.

I would just give it the sand business and an oiling. My helmet is mild steel and I rarely see any real rust to contend with and I live in a real humide area. Once every couple of months, I give it look over, remove some tiny rust spots and give it a once over with oil on a cloth.

[Dan Howard]

I have no experience with tin, but I have two zinced chainmails. They are slightly less shiny, at least initially and they tend to color anything that touches it with fine zinc powder. This will however cease after a time and the color will settle down to a believable one. It does not rust at all - wherever you store it, you can be sure it will be in good condition. You can revert the mail to its original condition if you use all the cleaning techniques from above, especially in a small cement mixer.

I can't understand why people don't buy galvanised mail. The stuff on the market doesn't have much in common with Roman mail apart from a superficial resemblance (except for Erik's work). If you are worried about authenticity then it doesn't make much of a difference whether it is galvanised or not. May as well save yourself the trouble of trying to keep it clean.

[jkaler48]

How do you propose to tin or silver a hamata and be/look authentic? It would require dipping in a vat-yes? That would be the most likely way the Romans would have done it since they did not have electroplating. I doubt that they would have wiped or brushed on a hot metal. Let alone melt the coating metal directly on a hamata. In modern times any metal to metal coating is not a problem. However, I cannot see a hamata with 5-6mm ID rings being dunked into hot molten metal. When the metal would cool, the whole thing would look like a clump since the molten metal would occupy all gaps created by the mail. I am not saying the Romans did not tin mail since they liked to tin and silver everything else. However, all the things you mentioned John, are not porous surfaces rather quite flat. Even Pompeii scabbards with their two-tone decoration have the tin or silver applied on a flat surface.

John McDermott, I beileve, has a mail shirt that was made for him by Erik Schmid and subsequently tin plated. Maybe he can shed some light.

IMHO, I think that eventually, the tin on the inner surface that touches the body, would be rubbed off since it will only be microns thick in which case the shirt has to be treated again. The other possibility is that upon a quick visual inspection, the silver or tin may be present on the surface of a link but some rust areas, especially small, can be hidden and not spotted; it looks shiny and silvery thus should be OK. For instance, a link may appear perfectly coated on its surface, but the tin could have worn off at the sides where the links rub and be difficult to see given the proxmity of the other links. This would give rise to a localized rust spot that can get worse.

I would just give it the sand business and an oiling. My helmet is mild steel and I rarely see any real rust to contend with and I live in a real humide area. Once every couple of months, I give it look over, remove some tiny rust spots and give it a once over with oil on a cloth.

I believe the rings will be tinned prior to assembly. Only use and time will tell if this is workable or not. If it turns out not to be worth the effort then the Romans were unlikely to have used tinned hamatas. However if wears well and looks good then it is possible tinned hamatas existed.

[Doc]

Again, as I said, I do not deem it impossible since the Romans did like the colorful, shiny or dramatic only to me it is improbable. Even dipping individual links by the time they assembled it, since mail making does require hammering, most of the tin would have been removed. At least this is how I see it.

[muskitear]

Hello,
When I was in a unit that had a lot of mail we used to rent a small cement mixer. we'd put the mail and some sand in and turn it on. I'd go drink a beer and come back and they were done.

Well if that aint spookey or what. We have a small tumbler for cleaning brass cartridge cases for reloading.
The rusty mail thing came up in conversation one day and a bit of jigging with an old washing macine produced the finest mail cleaner you could get.
Oh the best degreaser is trychoetholene.. Its used in plating shops.

[Doc]

Did you mean trichloroethylene? If so, watch out for chlorinated organic solvents. Many of them are known to be carcinogens (at least classified as such in the US). However, I am not sure of the one you mentioned. You may want to do an MSDS search.

[muskitear]

Did you mean trichloroethylene? If so, watch out for chlorinated organic solvents. Many of them are known to be carcinogens (at least classified as such in the US). However, I am not sure of the one you mentioned. You may want to do an MSDS search.

Im not quite sure of the spelling. Its a B****y gobful for anyone It looks like fog in a vat it will not drift out over the sides. Dangle object to be cleaned on long wire (not good forthe hands) It comes out dripping but dries immediately. The place I used to go to is now demolished and has been redeveloped.
I think its like dry cleaning fluid dunno

[Magnus]

I can't understand why people don't buy galvanised mail. The stuff on the market doesn't have much in common with Roman mail apart from a superficial resemblance (except for Erik's work). If you are worried about authenticity then it doesn't make much of a difference whether it is galvanised or not. May as well save yourself the trouble of trying to keep it clean.

That might illustrate too clearly the hypocracy of some people and their tendancy to say "yay" to somethings, and "nay" to others...for no apparent reason lol. We can't do that!