Vindonissa Pompei Blade

[brennivs - tony drake]

I have used Primvs picture there is a central apex running along the centre, the blade is of the narrow type Pompeii they go from this size up to near 50mm wide the blade would be 4-5mm thick max and as Robert said if it was 7mm thick the blade would have a more prenounced apex than the pic and be too heavy.

Swords were made in Roman times like the modern day army kit to milspec and using materials that are on the minimum side to save cost. The 10,000 blades sent back to Judea in 135 AD because they were made sub standard, in what way they were made was not mentioned. This is what the Jews used during the second revolt "clever". This is of the top of my head again :?
Regards Brennivs

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

Hi Paul,

Thanks, any idea on the thickness of the blade at the thickest part? The width at only 39 mm seems so slender, I thought blades were more like 50 mm. Could material have been lost through corrosion?

Although blades 50mm wide are attested, they are not in the majority. Here is a short list from Miks (length of the blade/width):

Mainz 485/40
Xanten 478/45
Grimbergen-Eikenhoeke 486/38
Hofstade-Steenberg 489/45
Neuss 490/45-6
Klein-Winternheim 490/42
Lomneis 486/35
Gue de la Casaque 449/43
Lux 447/40
Zbijega 440/40
Bordesholm 410/35
Simandre 377/41
Trebusice 515/38
Sladkovicovo 460/41
Newstead 495/50
Nijmegen 496/52
Kotla 492/44
Oosterhoot 493/44-6
Mikulov 518/50
Blizkovice 460/36
Zwammerdam 550/45
Horgen 520/45
Drzonek 490/34
Haggum 490-500/38
Lobith 490/37
Kamienezyk 480/37

[Robert]

Wow, thanks! This is a great help should I ever get around to smithing my own blades. I may have a go before the Roman festival, although those blades will be the longer spatha types, as they are for a bunch of mid 1 st century irregular axillia Batavians. Any specs on those, by some chance? I do feel more comfortable with the 4-5 mm thickness on the Pompeii blade.

[brennivs - tony drake]

Robert I copyed this blade from Newstead dated to the early 2nd AD. I will dig out the specs and post just ignore the 3rd AD scabbard it is about 610mm blade without handle and 40mm wide blade? 4.5mm thick the blade is of leaf shape profile. This is from the top of my head :lol: again.

Regards Brennivs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I imagine that is the spatha, which I seem to have forgotten to photograph front on, as opposed to this one?

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q315 ... 0141-1.jpg

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

No, that is Newstead Pompeii gladius.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

No, that is Newstead Pompeii gladius.

Yes, I was asking if Tony's was the Spatha" :?

[Matt Lukes]

Thanks for the input, Jef. I have seen the article, it made interesting reading, but at a thickness of 7 mm wouldn't it make the blade a rather steep diamondshape, making it harder to sharpen the edge (but then, it was more a thrusting weapon, I suppose).

But remember too Robert that these were barely steel weapons so at such a narrow width, they might actually bend with a hard impact if they weren't so thick. Ever see slow motion film of a medieval or modern sword impact? They distort quite significantly, but tempering keeps them from breaking or bending permanently. These ancient weapons were surely subject to both, thus, it seems, the need to make them considerably more robust with respect to thickness. There's another pompeiiensis blade from Vindonissa that, according to the diagram in the Katalog, has a thickness of nearly 8mm.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

8mm is not so much really! But I did take a pictue of the newstead spatha edge on to show the thinness! Unfortunately, it was soooo thin I cant pick it out in any of the pics! :roll: :oops:

[Magnus]

Geeee, nice going Byron! lol, j/k!

Great resources here guys...too bad there is no way to give multiple laudes!

[Robert]

Salve Tony!

Nice blade! Hammered it out yourself (it has a forged look to it) And thanks for the dimensions. Were the spatha's diamondshaped as well? It looks to be rounded in the picture, more like some of the late La Tene cutting swords.

[brennivs - tony drake]

Hi Robert I think it was origonaly diamond, but I had made so many like that I changed it to the leaf shape.what grabbed me was the fact it said it was a Cavalry Spartha but in the hand it feels a bit on the short side to me.I am busy up the work shop a the moment so will dig out later and post the info.The blade was not forged, my forge is to small to do blades of this length so its just small items
Regards Brennivs

[Robert]

Salve!

The guy who gave me a tutioral smithing said one can make a longer fire by banking it with bricks on the side, not heating the whole blade but working back from the tip and NOT quenching in between, but just keeping it hot and working back. That is what I will be trying as I get more practice in pounding iron. I will use 8 mm thick stock to make a stronger blade as suggested, and this seems to be covered by arch. data on blade thickness.
Tony, Do you make your blades by stockremoval of higher carbon steel? Would much appreciate dimensions on 1 st aux spatha's.

[brennivs - tony drake]

Robert they is 2 blades from Newstead, diamond crossection.
L 622mm W 30mm
L 635mm W 35mm
I would still prefer to have a bigger forge and have toyed with drawing out the blade :? hmm but I will stick with how I make the swords at least for now.
I have used high carbon steels with stock removal;
Chrome Carbon,
Gauge Plate,
Tool steel,
Spring Steel EN45,
So do you need to know anything in particular :?:
Regards Brennivs

[Robert]

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the data! At present I'm OK, wanting to eventualy forge a blade, as I would like to try blades the original way. Nothing wrong with stock removal, some of the best knifesmiths use nothing else, but I guess I just like bashing iron and lack to proper tools like a beltsander for proper stock removal. I just got a powerfile, so I will try that on the finishing of some of the hasta tips I'm making.

Regards