Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Project- Influences of Roman military on modern day riot control
#42
(11-25-2016, 08:06 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(11-25-2016, 05:52 PM)Bryan Wrote: What did Caesar do when he wanted to lead flagging infantry? He got off his horse, grabbed an infantryman's scutum, and moved to the very front of the ranks, exhorting and leading by example. And he usually needed to do this only after the centurions and standard bearers were all casualties.

It's worth quoting that passage:

Gallic Wars 2.25: ...all the centurions of the fourth cohort were slain, and the standard-bearer killed, the standard itself lost, almost all the centurions of the other cohorts either wounded or slain... having therefore snatched a shield from one of the soldiers in the rear (for he himself had come without a shield), [Caesar] advanced to the front of the line, and addressing the centurions by name, and encouraging the rest of the soldiers, he ordered them to carry forward the standards, and extend the companies, that they might the more easily use their swords. On his arrival, as hope was brought to the soldiers and their courage restored, while every one for his own part, in the sight of his general, desired to exert his utmost energy, the impetuosity of the enemy was a little checked.

Very clear evidence here that the centurions, at least in this period, all fought at the front, and if a senior commander (Caesar in this case) wanted to give orders he would go to the front line to do it, not try and shout from the rear.

This and the other bits of evidence (Polybius and Vegetius) provide, I think, good enough proof that centurions fought at the front - that was where they were expected to be, that was where they were most effective, and they would need a very good excuse to be anywhere else!

Exactly! The descriptions of battles and duties, the dress, the high experience, the ridiculously high casualty rates, that culturally most other contemporary military cultures also placed leaders in the front rank (Celts with Chieftains, Greeks with Kings, Promachoi Elite, and then File Leaders). It all points to centurions being in the front ranks.  

Here's Polybius: "They wish the centurions not so much to be venturesome and daredevil as to be natural leaders, of a steady and sedate spirit. They do not desire them so much to be men who will initiate attacks and open the battle, but men who will hold their ground when worsted and hard-pressed and be ready to die at their posts." Quite different then the real centurions in Caesar's description and other works, who describe Virtus filled killing machines, near berserkers. But Polybius' Ideal Centurion doesn't sound like someone who commanded from the rear, hiding behind the shields of up to 10 men in front of them, it sounds like the perils of leading from the front.

(11-25-2016, 08:46 PM)Densus Wrote: You are right Nathan, context is important.  The chapters before this one describe a situation where units were being surrounded, the camp was over run and auxiliaries and others were starting to break and run.  Exactly the sort of desperate situation I have mentioned before where commanders might have to do a 'follow me' moment. The last line in your quote is interesting too;

"On his arrival, as hope was brought to the soldiers and their courage restored, while every one for his own part, in the sight of his general, desired to exert his utmost energy, the impetuosity of the enemy was a little checked."

Nowhere there, or in the rest of 2:25, is there any mention of Caesar actually fighting the enemy, just that those fighting were now in his sight.  When it says he 'advanced to the front of line' might that not just as easily mean he moved from a position where he could see the whole of the battlefield to a position immediately behind the fighting line where he was close enough to shout orders to them?    

No, because Caesar was already at the back of the leading battle line, we know this because he took a shield away from one of the men in the rear ranks of that first battle line. He then proceeded to push his way to the front rank, of the front battle line, where he led the counter attack. It specifically says in Latin he was in the front line, primam aciem, which means he was at the very very front of his entire army. Why did he need to do that? Because the centurions were all wounded or dead. Because they led from the front and paid the acceptable price for it.
Reply


Messages In This Thread
RE: Project- Influences of Roman military on modern day riot control - by Bryan - 11-25-2016, 08:48 PM

Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Roman Influences over pc/modern warfare/military Michael Hill 5 2,926 06-18-2015, 12:54 PM
Last Post: Frank
  Roman military tactics in modern riots? Epictetus 15 6,752 01-29-2014, 01:21 PM
Last Post: Thomas Aagaard
  MODERN DAY ARMY AND ROMAN INFLUENCES Anonymous 12 8,384 02-20-2004, 11:10 AM
Last Post: Anonymous

Forum Jump: