Steven James: please quote the exact sentences where they said that... i did just that, and there is no such thing being said...
you see - Polybius didnt specify which ones were those below the 10000 drachmae... Im saying, that men under 10.000 could be from Hastati, Principes and Triarii alike.. If those were only Hastati, he would have mentioned just that, when he was describing Hastati... but he didn't... he left that part at the end, with no specific mention to either Hastati, Principes or Triarii.. he actually said that they used same, and only difference was the SPEAR that Triarii used..... its actually beyond me why everybody automatically expect every single man that is over 36 (triarii) to be automatically better suited than younger man could be... Age doesnt automatically grant wealth.. yes, you get older and manage to make more money than younger version of yourself, BUT, there are more wealthier families around, that have more money than you would ever have, and those would not send their sons to war under-equipped, just because they are not 36 years old... everybody was responsible for own equipment, so everybody would try to get the best protection their resources allowed. Mind you, Plebeians were not Proletarii, upper limit was 400.000 drachmae (Patricians were said to be richer than 400.000 drachmae)
Another important point is how others describe these three classes during Punic wars.. Triarii were often even excluded from combat - at Cannae they were left guarding the camps.. if they were best equipped troops, why would they left them guarding the camp, when actual Roman strategy at Cannae was to smash Carthaginians with "BEST they have"??
Servian and Polybian consititution describe quite different things... there are hundreds of years between those two.. Servian constitution is much closer to the Greek way of deploying troops into phalanx - with the best equipped in the front rank than Manipular formation. in such case (Hoplite Phalanx), it makes sense to differentiate men based on wealth, as you want to have best equipped men in front rank, as they are the one that will defeat the enemy - In Greek Hoplite Warfare, front rank was place of honor, usually king and his nobles were in it.. yet, with Manipular tactics, it was a battle of attrition,fatigue played a huge role in it.. therefore differentiating men by age made more sense, as younger men had better stamina than old ones.. Hastati and Veles were to tire enemy down, so Principes could decide the battle.. if any group could represent the elite force of Roman Legion, it would be the Principes, not the Triarii, who usually didnt even fought - they were kept behind as a reserve and only used in emergency - they just lacked the stamina to be useable in the heat of battle for long. If anything, Triarii were more like reservist force..
oh, and regarding armor, it is worth mentioning that for example Ahenobarbus monument made in 122BC shows Legionaries all wearing what looks like Lorica Hamata.. no Pectorales there at all.. but of course, as all monuments, it might show the best case scenario, and not the average one.
![[Image: louvre-relief-dit-domitius-ahenobarbus.jpg]](http://www.louvre.fr/sites/default/files/imagecache/940x768/medias/medias_images/images/louvre-relief-dit-domitius-ahenobarbus.jpg)
Quote:But what do those troops below 10,000 drachmae wear? Could they not be the hastati?
you see - Polybius didnt specify which ones were those below the 10000 drachmae... Im saying, that men under 10.000 could be from Hastati, Principes and Triarii alike.. If those were only Hastati, he would have mentioned just that, when he was describing Hastati... but he didn't... he left that part at the end, with no specific mention to either Hastati, Principes or Triarii.. he actually said that they used same, and only difference was the SPEAR that Triarii used..... its actually beyond me why everybody automatically expect every single man that is over 36 (triarii) to be automatically better suited than younger man could be... Age doesnt automatically grant wealth.. yes, you get older and manage to make more money than younger version of yourself, BUT, there are more wealthier families around, that have more money than you would ever have, and those would not send their sons to war under-equipped, just because they are not 36 years old... everybody was responsible for own equipment, so everybody would try to get the best protection their resources allowed. Mind you, Plebeians were not Proletarii, upper limit was 400.000 drachmae (Patricians were said to be richer than 400.000 drachmae)
Another important point is how others describe these three classes during Punic wars.. Triarii were often even excluded from combat - at Cannae they were left guarding the camps.. if they were best equipped troops, why would they left them guarding the camp, when actual Roman strategy at Cannae was to smash Carthaginians with "BEST they have"??
Quote:For the Servian constitution of five property classes, and Polybius statement the legion (hastati, principes and triarii) consisted of four property classes, this leaves open the possibility the triarii could be Class I, the principes Class II and III, and the hastati Class IV, leaving the possibility of the velites being Class V.
Servian and Polybian consititution describe quite different things... there are hundreds of years between those two.. Servian constitution is much closer to the Greek way of deploying troops into phalanx - with the best equipped in the front rank than Manipular formation. in such case (Hoplite Phalanx), it makes sense to differentiate men based on wealth, as you want to have best equipped men in front rank, as they are the one that will defeat the enemy - In Greek Hoplite Warfare, front rank was place of honor, usually king and his nobles were in it.. yet, with Manipular tactics, it was a battle of attrition,fatigue played a huge role in it.. therefore differentiating men by age made more sense, as younger men had better stamina than old ones.. Hastati and Veles were to tire enemy down, so Principes could decide the battle.. if any group could represent the elite force of Roman Legion, it would be the Principes, not the Triarii, who usually didnt even fought - they were kept behind as a reserve and only used in emergency - they just lacked the stamina to be useable in the heat of battle for long. If anything, Triarii were more like reservist force..
oh, and regarding armor, it is worth mentioning that for example Ahenobarbus monument made in 122BC shows Legionaries all wearing what looks like Lorica Hamata.. no Pectorales there at all.. but of course, as all monuments, it might show the best case scenario, and not the average one.
Jaroslav Jakubov
