05-20-2007, 04:55 AM
Hello Hoplitesmores,
I don't disagree with anything you've said (well maybe except for one or two minor things).
The English and French philhellenes certainly encouraged its use to the exclusion of the name Rhomaioi. That was my only point.
Weren't the two terms (Rhomioi and Graekoi) used simultaneously at the time of the outbreak of the War for Independence ?
You yourself quoted someone saying "In brief, the so-called "Byzantines" identified themselves as Graekoi, Hellenes, and Rhomioi ". None of these terms were mutually exclusive, am I right ? In other words, you weren't just one of these. You were Greek and Roman. (And I suppose one could be a Latin and a Roman, but he couldn't be a Latin and a Greek.)
Yes, all true enough. But the administration itself was Roman, and the army owed little or nothing of its organization to any Greek model. There's more to culture than language, IMO.
Charlemange, if I'm not mistaken, started or at least popularized the use of the name 'Greek' in the medieval West so that he could claim to be Emperor of the Romans. Of course, the use of the word 'Greek' would have later evolved to include negative connotations due to religious schisms.
All that concerns me is what the Eastern Romans called themselves and not how they were perceived by others.
Yes, the dirty work was done by the Greek Christians with materiel support from the English and Russians. Without foreign aid the revolt would have failed.
To both questions : very few. Like you said. Hence my earlier statement about the English being unconcerned for your struggle until you appealed to their love for ancient Greece.
I think you're confusing two separate statements that I made about the French and the English. They were both culpable in perpetuating Edward Gibbon's view of Byzantium which is a vile distortion of history. I didn't mean to imply France ever helped in your country's efforts to achieve independence.
True. But then why did the Turks, the ultimate conquerors of this 'Greek Kingdom', call it the empire of "Rum" ?
Yes, I agree, the Turks are chiefly to blame. Of course, the 'great powers' of the time of Greek independence did little to recitfy the situation. In fact, they only further obscured the historical truth of 'Byzantium' thanks to movements like the so-called Enlightenment and Romanticism and to jerks like Gibbon.
~Theo
I don't disagree with anything you've said (well maybe except for one or two minor things).
Quote:They called themselves Greeks and never stopped.It wans't invented or imposed by greeks or English/French.
The English and French philhellenes certainly encouraged its use to the exclusion of the name Rhomaioi. That was my only point.
Weren't the two terms (Rhomioi and Graekoi) used simultaneously at the time of the outbreak of the War for Independence ?
You yourself quoted someone saying "In brief, the so-called "Byzantines" identified themselves as Graekoi, Hellenes, and Rhomioi ". None of these terms were mutually exclusive, am I right ? In other words, you weren't just one of these. You were Greek and Roman. (And I suppose one could be a Latin and a Roman, but he couldn't be a Latin and a Greek.)
Quote:In "byzantium"
The majority of the common people spoke greek
The language of the Church was greek
the language of administration was greek
the language of the scholars was also greek
Yes, all true enough. But the administration itself was Roman, and the army owed little or nothing of its organization to any Greek model. There's more to culture than language, IMO.
Quote:and finally they were called Greeks in the west and by the Pope and by most foreign states.
Charlemange, if I'm not mistaken, started or at least popularized the use of the name 'Greek' in the medieval West so that he could claim to be Emperor of the Romans. Of course, the use of the word 'Greek' would have later evolved to include negative connotations due to religious schisms.
All that concerns me is what the Eastern Romans called themselves and not how they were perceived by others.
Quote:And the english didnt kick the ottomans out.We did.
Yes, the dirty work was done by the Greek Christians with materiel support from the English and Russians. Without foreign aid the revolt would have failed.
Quote:How many years did the english or French fought with us and in what numbers?
To both questions : very few. Like you said. Hence my earlier statement about the English being unconcerned for your struggle until you appealed to their love for ancient Greece.
Quote:Last time i checked in Mesollogi the Ottomans had french officers helping them and we had a handfull of phillellenes.
I think you're confusing two separate statements that I made about the French and the English. They were both culpable in perpetuating Edward Gibbon's view of Byzantium which is a vile distortion of history. I didn't mean to imply France ever helped in your country's efforts to achieve independence.
Quote:and finally they were called Greeks in the west and by the Pope and by most foreign states
True. But then why did the Turks, the ultimate conquerors of this 'Greek Kingdom', call it the empire of "Rum" ?
Quote:I guess 400 years of slavery was having an adverse effect in greek schooling.Amazing discovery the fact what several centuries of theft rape and murder can do to a peoples education and culture.
Yes, I agree, the Turks are chiefly to blame. Of course, the 'great powers' of the time of Greek independence did little to recitfy the situation. In fact, they only further obscured the historical truth of 'Byzantium' thanks to movements like the so-called Enlightenment and Romanticism and to jerks like Gibbon.
~Theo
Jaime
