The English and the Celts - no genocide?

[authun]

My point? Gildas’ account of the 5th c. is being misused. Use it? Use all of it.

Vortigern,

I was only answering your point that "Gildas saw that as a happier time, I believe". I disagree, I don't read his words and see it the same way. Perhaps you could explain why you believe that Gildas saw it as a happy time.

It’s a bit rich to see a sharp population drop based on their incursions? A plague follows (DEB 22).

I don't think the argument for a population crash is solely based on Irish and Pictish incursions. Gildas also mentions famine. The plague you mention above would also reduce numbers.

However, that means not singling out a sentence that fancies us.

Then please tell us why you think Gildas sees the period before the adventus as a happy one.

The only evidence for hardships in Britain comes from Gildas, and any conclusions about a drop in population *based on that* cannot stand.

I don't think they do solely rely on Gildas' words. You'd have to read their arguments to be fully informed.

As to your statement that the only evidence for hardships in Britain comes from Gildas, again I have to disagree. The report of a seminar about the archaeological evidence at West Heslerton published in Antiquity claims:

No links could be found between the late Roman pottery and the Anglian that followed -- nothing `sub-Roman'; the general impression is still of a social and economic collapse in the latest 4th-early 5th century, with a parallel collapse of Crambeck and other pottery industries. (Philip Rahtz)

I mentioned earlier too Kevin Leahy's work in North Lincolnshire, the number of coin depositions and the construction of defensive works. Again, the period is between Rome and the adventus.

best

Harry Amphlett