The English and the Celts - no genocide?

[ambrosius]

Actually, no, Robert. That is precisely the point Coates makes.
The same one Aryaman made. And as a Linguistic proffesor, you'd
think Coates would know. Linguistic borrowing only takes place by a
conqueror when there is some prestige to be gained by the
conqueror. Franks admired Roman culture - even Romano-Gauls, and
saw them as strong people to be emulated. Obviously, Anglo-Saxons
didn't think much of Britons.

I disagree, Coates points to enslavement, expulsion and genocide as probable answers, my reply was that social considerations could be enough to explain it.

Well I'm none-too-sure exactly what it is that you're disagreeing with,
here, Aryaman, as I was quoting what you said. So I was attempting
to agree with you about linguistic borrowing being the result of a
perceived gain in prestige on the part of the invaders who are doing the borrowing. If you're disagreeing with me saying that Coates also says
this (and thus, he agrees with you) then I disagree with you. :?

Here's what Coates says, p.2 of the article:

"Moravcsik identifies lexical borrowing as a prerequisite for any other
type of borrowing... Borrowing will not take place at all without the
prospect of "projected gain" for the borrower and, equally,
borrowing will be avoided in situations where the unconscious use
of borrowed material will result in stigma for the borrower."

And then on P.3:

"It is *possible that the Britons also gave some of their personal
names to the English. If so, that would be an indication that the Britons were a sufficiently positive 'outside influence' in English society, for
the English to want to imitate their naming practices and therefore
for Clark's first Law of Applied Amthroponymics to apply.
Unfortunately, we cannot tell whether a Brittonic name in an Anglo-Saxon source is truly the name of a Briton or a Saxon, even where it
is ostensibly that of a Saxon, as in the case of Cerdic."

(*N.B. see my earlier reply to Jim on why it is extremely doubtful that
Cerdic was a British name, and even less that he was a British person!)

So, Aryaman, Coates was indeed making the same point as yourself.
The only difference is that I think you used the phrase 'prestige' (which
I actually prefer, myself) whereas Coates talks of 'projected gain' in
borrowing words and of 'sufficiently positive outside influence' when in
the hypothetical situation where Saxons might have borrowed
any British names. But you'r both making the same point. And I agree
with both of you. I think. :wink:

Ambrosius / Mike