Padded Armour

[tlclark]

This post may rather belong to 'reenactment and reconstruction', but I still think the first test results of my 'subarmalis' should be posted here.

By all means! Thanks.

I wanted the design to be as simple as possible, so I constructed it a little like an 'old Roman' tunic: a slit for the head, but no sleeves.
The neckslit had to be enlarged to keep it from exerting unpleasant pressure on the carotis.
The closing system (leather straps running from stitched on heart-shaped leather patches) was taken from a Dura-Europos linen greave liner.

Looks good to me. I have no idea how it would work for a segmentata, but on the musculata, we never see the subarmalis around the neckline, which is why my pattern has a square neckline. This might solve any binding problem.

Luckily I have been disciplined enough over the last months to lose 3-4 kilos, or otherwise there would have been real trouble getting into my cuirass (it was already difficult enough!).

Actually why do you think I want a musculata with 'love handles'? It covers a multitude of sins.

Anyway, the subarmalis looks great. Thanks!

Travis

[FAVENTIANVS]

In the context of this discussion, perhaps we should start forgetting about leather (single or alongside with other layers of different materials) for the pterugae

Why? I mean, just for the Pterugae...

[Flavius Promotus]

Good job, Florian!

Anyway, the subarmalis looks great. Thanks!

Thank you guys

John, did you mix the wool and the hemp, or do you use a sandwich method (different layers of hemp and wool) ?

Mike, don't worry about your subarmalis being 'not refined enough'. As long as it works... And you can always improve it (what I also have to do - phew, more work :? ).
Luckily, I will be spared one thing, the pteruges! He, he :twisted:
No, I won't add them. Sorry guys, I am sure yours will look great, and red and blue pteryges would surely also look great on me, but slowly I have to be careful not to make my equipment too heavy - (every little pound counts). The Alba Iulia relief does not show them, so this will be my feeble excuse :wink: .

Square neckslit for a musculata: Travis, you are most likely correct, but for the legionary impression I wanted to have enough padding at the neck. I usually carry my helmet tied to the right shoulder plates, but if I want to to carrying tests with a hamata, I'll probably have to hang it around my neck. Guess the padding will be very welcome, then

[tlclark]

Square neckslit for a musculata: Travis, you are most likely correct, but for the legionary impression I wanted to have enough padding at the neck. I usually carry my helmet tied to the right shoulder plates, but if I want to to carrying tests with a hamata, I'll probably have to hang it around my neck. Guess the padding will be very welcome, then

No doubt. A square neckhole makes sense with a musculata, in any other case, I'd want the padding. My guess is that officers had plently of slaves to haul their gear.

Which reminds me...anyone out there doing a slave impression for a tribune?

Not shopping around mind you, just curious.

Travis

[John M McDermott]

I agree with Favantianus. And, why exclude the possibility of hide or other substances that would have offered equal or better protection than the fabrics that have been proposed here?

There seems to be a mode of thinking that the Romans were unconcerned with protecting themselves, and, therefore, would not have attempted to make pteruges out of something that would have possessed defensive value.

[John M McDermott]

Flavius - The outer layer is a very heavy hemp, the inner core is wool and the inner most layer is fine hemp.

[tlclark]

Flavius - The outer layer is a very heavy hemp, the inner core is wool and the inner most layer is fine hemp.

What's the weave of the heavy hemp like? How open is it? Is hemp an ancient fabric?!

Is the wool core woven or felt?

Travis

[John M McDermott]

Hemp is absolutely an ancient fabric with space age qualities. Breathes, tear resistant, warm in the cold, cool in the heat. Snag proof. Really dense weave. I don't know how it is woven, I don't know how to tell. The wool is a loose weave.

[aitor iriarte]

John, we aren't moving inside a wide area full of open possibilities (Even though that area exists :wink: ) We're struggling to make sense out of the simplified and sometimes inconsistent world of Roman statues. From that evidence we think that pterugae were most probably made of fabric, so as the subarmalis was. The halfround lappets seem to be made of leather, though...
And that's all!

Aitor

[John M McDermott]

This approach does not account for what may be in an unseen layer.

Consider the possiblities that the statues depict men of wealth and importance who would wear pteruges faced with the finest tablet weaving.

Consider that the face may conceal a material of much greater defensive value.

Consider that at least one of the statues depicting a pattern on a pteruge may depict the heavy grain of hide, and not a weave that you are all working so hard to see.

[tlclark]

Consider the possiblities that the statues depict men of wealth and importance who would wear pteruges faced with the finest tablet weaving.

Probably weft-faced tapestry weaving, but that's being technical. The result is the same, a weft or warp faced heavy material, perhaps with an elaborate pattern.

Consider that the face may conceal a material of much greater defensive value.

Since I don't have x-ray vision I can't argue that either. It seems plausible. :wink:

Maybe, I could go along with that, but also consider that the cloth/composite linen could have equal defensive value.

Consider that at least one of the statues depicting a pattern on a pteruge may depict the heavy grain of hide, and not a weave that you are all working so hard to see.

Well what we are seeing is regular patterns, diamond cross-hatching in most cases. If that's the case, it's hard to see how this is leather unless it was tooled like a diamond cut grip on a pistol or something like that.

The more obvious choice is cloth.

On another note, I want to thank everyone for contributing, especially John, Florian, and Aklore for sharing their subarmalis designs, and Aitor for his sound suggestions. I have come to the conclusion that I will need to make my subarmalis FIRST, since the musculata will have to fit over it, and your suggestions/designs have helped me greatly.

Thanks.

Travis

[John M McDermott]

My persistence is founded in the belief that the Romans were both dedicated and ingenious in designing their armor.

I absolutely believe that composite is the way they would go.

Hide, as opposed to leather, gets ignored way too much. It is an awsome defensive material, particularly when combined with something else as in the scutum. It imparts a strength all out of proportion to its weight. It is partially flexible. I took a piece last night and stained it and the appearance took on what was depicted on at least one of the reliefs displayed here-a sort of graininess that could be confused with weaving. The grains were large and protruding, not to mention hard.

[Flavius Promotus]

Flavius - The outer layer is a very heavy hemp, the inner core is wool and the inner most layer is fine hemp.

Thank you John! Unfortunately, it is already too late for me to use any modifications. I just don't have the time for a second attempt this year.

But a subarmalis with a sandwich design of several materials does not sound far-fetched. Although we will probably never know how exactly the Romans did this

I took a piece last night and stained it and the appearance took on what was depicted on at least one of the reliefs displayed here-a sort of graininess that could be confused with weaving. The grains were large and protruding, not to mention hard.

please, show us more

[tlclark]

Here's my latest pattern,

based on suggestions from Aitor and Florian's, Aklore's and John's Subarmalia.

I will hopefully start cutting it out soon.



The plan is to cut several layers. I have been reading over on the Linothorax thread as well.

the inner layer will be linen, then a layer of 1/8th inch felt (snythetic, since it won't be seen and I need to save costs.)

Then a cloth core, then more felt and then another layer of linen.

Basically I will do this twice, and stitch the two sets together, perhaps with another thicker layer of felt inbetween. This may see like a lot, but I am trying to make the pteruges integral to the subarmalis, while still making two rows of pteruges. I will offset the pteruges on one layer for the final project.

Here's how it will break down.

2 layers with

linen/felt /cloth core(fringe)/felt/cloth

Any suggestions?

Thanks

Travis

[FAVENTIANVS]

Remember that the shoulder pteruges should be in avantail form otherwise, when worn on, they'll all converge.