Padded Armour

[tlclark]

Travis,
In the actual state of our thoughts, I think that thick felt would be perhaps only appropriated for a plain subarmalis of the thorachomacus kind.
We're arriving to the interesting conclusion of 'pterugated' subarmalis being an affair of multiple felt or fabric layers.
Do you agree with that? 8)

Aitor

Yes. I think basically, if the pteruges are of the same piece as the body of the subarmalis, then it makes the most sense that you have two layers, you can think of this as two subarmalis, one on top of the other. That would make the double row of pteruges, and a substantial level of protection on the upper body.

Travis

[Caballo]

RTravis wrote: "That would make the double row of pteruges, and a substantial level of protection on the upper body. "

Makes a lot of sense , with the top pteruges naturally lying slightly higher the pteruges of the subarmalis beneath as shown on many statues.

And given that these multi rowed pteruges appear on high status statues with lower ranks having fewer rows (or even only one, as in Adamklissi) perhaps also a status symbol, showing that the owner could afford several tailored subarmalis's (not sure of the Latin here....)?

Question- would you see the top layer of each felt pteruges being covered by a waterproof leather pteruges sewn and tailored to the felt beneath? Would this explain the edging marks on pteruges?

Regards,

Britannicus

[tlclark]

Paulus Britannicus:

Thanks for the comments.

Question- would you see the top layer of each felt pteruges being covered by a waterproof leather pteruges sewn and tailored to the felt beneath? Would this explain the edging marks on pteruges?

Regards,

Britannicus

We (Aitor and me) are still undecided on the covering of the pteruges. It is clear that they are covered and edged somehow. If you look back up the thread, I posted pictures of several examples.

Here's the options.

Aitor thinks that we have pteruges built up around a cloth core, and I agree that makes the most sense. The core is what makes the fringe naturally on the end.

Felt/fabric pteruges covered in fabric (there is one image that seems to indicate this) and edged on the sides with some liner, leather, or cloth.

Leather covered pteruges with a cloth core.

In either case, the materials would have to be edged/sewn together and we think that is the line we are seeing on so many examples.

On the Primaporta, it looks like stitching, on others it looks like edging, possibly leather.

If the pteruges are made of a fabric/leather over a cloth core, it would make sense that the subarmis is the same, since I think the subarmalis and pteruges are cut from the same piece, like a linothorax.

Travis

[tlclark]

On a show I let my friend thrust at me with his semisharp lutel when wearing that stuff and I was not badly injured. Had a bruise though. But not as blue as the ones from waistersparring. hehe.

You. are. crazy. hock:

Be sure to send on the autopsy report so we can gain new insights from your death.

Were you wearing the maille AND the subarmalis or just the subarmalis?

I am amazed at how tough the felt samples I have are against penetration. I can't pierce the larger swatch with my awl without a substantial tap from the hammer. I think that if I had a subarmalis made up of several layers of felt and cloth it would give me a lot more piece of mind.

It would seem to me that once the maille slowed down the projectile, the subarmalis would have a great deal of resistance to puncture itself.

I need to make one and test it, but as always...money is a problem.

Travis

[aitor iriarte]

Travis and Paulus,
Like you, unfortunately I wasn't there and, therefore, I cannot tell anything for sure, but...
I think that wearing two superimposed subarmales would be far too cumbersome and unpractical. Far more than wearing a single, extra-thick subarmalis! :?

Aitor

[tlclark]

Travis and Paulus,
Like you, unfortunately I wasn't there and, therefore, I cannot tell anything for sure, but...
I think that wearing two superimposed subarmales would be far too cumbersome and unpractical. Far more than wearing a single, extra-thick subarmalis! :?

Aitor

Well, the proposal I am making is that the two layers would be sewn together so as to be one single unit.

As to the preference of two layers to one extra thick, I'm not so sure.

Layering the felt samples I have has noticed that the layered samples outperform the thick samples. Two layers of 1/4 inch felt are a lot more resistant to puncture than one layer of 1/2 inch thick felt.

So layering may provide an added benefit.

Travis

[Martin Wallgren]

You. are. crazy. hock:

Be sure to send on the autopsy report so we can gain new insights from your death.

Were you wearing the maille AND the subarmalis or just the subarmalis?

Well, I see it as just dedicated.

I´ll put in my will that they take photos and post it together with the autopsy report here, don´t know if it historical research or offtopic twisted: !

I was wearing (from the skin out) linen shirt, thin gambeson, butted maile 8mm and a aceton (some 15 layers of linnen and cotton)

[Virilis]

Hi Martin,

do you have good information/sources about the Visby battle (was it in the early 14th century?). If I remember right there were numerous bodies excavated in a mass grave, some of them still wearing the mailshirts. Some had their BOTH LEGS cut away by a sword blow and one skull had FIVE crossbow bolts in the back of the head! Am I correct?

[Dan Howard]

Sort of. The double leg amputation was done to a guy who was lying on the ground, not engaged in battle. The head injuries were likely executions, not battle wounds.

[Dan Howard]

Travis and Paulus,
Like you, unfortunately I wasn't there and, therefore, I cannot tell anything for sure, but...
I think that wearing two superimposed subarmales would be far too cumbersome and unpractical. Far more than wearing a single, extra-thick subarmalis! :?

Aitor

Wear the heavier of the two over the top, not both underneath. The European padded jack was worn over the haubergeon which was worn over an aketon - the combination is proof against the longbow. In the Crusades it is likely that the Franks wore a heavy velt vest over their mail and the combination was proof against Saracen arrows. Saladin's biographer, Bahā’al-Dīn, wrote that the crusaders were:

drawn up in front of the cavalry, stood firm as a wall, and every foot-soldier wore a vest of thick felt and a coat of mail so dense and strong that our arrows made no impression on them… I saw some with from one to ten arrows sticking in them, and still advancing at their ordinary pace without leaving the ranks.

[tlclark]

Wear the heavier of the two over the top, not both underneath. The European padded jack was worn over the haubergeon which was worn over an aketon - the combination is proof against the longbow. In the Crusades it is likely that the Franks wore a heavy velt vest over their mail and the combination was proof against Saracen arrows. Saladin's biographer, Bah?’al-D?n, wrote that the crusaders were:

drawn up in front of the cavalry, stood firm as a wall, and every foot-soldier wore a vest of thick felt and a coat of mail so dense and strong that our arrows made no impression on them… I saw some with from one to ten arrows sticking in them, and still advancing at their ordinary pace without leaving the ranks.

I have no doubt that that would work. Looking at my felt samples and how well they resisted puncture I am convinced felt could have been used.

The only problem is that there is no specific evidence that the Romans employed such a system.

If you look back up the thread you will see that there are some who suggest that the Libyan hides are very similar to the outer coverings worn over maille in later periods, but the context of the mention of the Libyan hides seems to indicate that they were meant to protect the armor from the elements and moisture, not add an extra layer of protection.

Myself, since my interest is the musculata, I can say that the padded armor is definitely not worn over the cuirass itself, but I am prepared to accept any combination of layers, including possibly maille, underneath the cuirass.

I definitely think that the layering of materials makes a huge difference.

Thanks for the info.

Travis.

[Martin Wallgren]

I will check with my friend Joachim who is an expert on this matters.

The Battle outside Visby stood in the summer of 1361 on the fields known as Korsbetningen - the cross pastures - between the Danish King Waldemar Atterdags few hundred professional soldiers and a peasantarmy of some 2000 men. Cought inbetween the city wall (still standing) and the Danes the peasants didn´t stand a chans and where brutally cut down. Indeed there is an exebition in the Museum of Visby, called Visby Fornsal, of victims from the massgraves of this battle. Some of them display severe injuries like multiple crossbow wounds or limbs choped of. There is a famous skull that still wear a maile hood. To clarify this peasant army eas recorded to be poorly armed and had according to contemporary sources outdated equipment, some even armed with tools and not proper weapons.

Here is some links showing photos related to this:
http://hem.passagen.se/rodorm/Rustningar.html
http://home.swipnet.se/~w-64205/cupps.html
http://home.swipnet.se/~w-64205/plata_se.html

[Virilis]

Tack Martin!

Great pictures! I think the skull with multiple crossbow tips in it`s back was used for target-practice. Well, boys will be boys (very bad humour :oops: ....)!

Interesting variation within the armour, mail, plate armour. One is almost like Lorica Segmentata! I have always had the opinion that in general the equipment would have had more variation than we think, no matter what era of history is concerned. Despite this, it is better to stick with the actual evidence and not jump to conclusions...

Regard`s

[Martin Wallgren]

Great pictures! I think the skull with multiple crossbow tips in it`s back was used for target-practice. Well, boys will be boys (very bad humour :oops: ....)!

Actually I think youre right. At least it is an execution. The risk of getting hit five times in the back of the head on a area of 4 square inches during battle is minimal I think.

[aitor iriarte]

Dan,
Maybe I didn't make it clear enough :? D

Aitor