Padded Armour

[aitor iriarte]

Hi Travis.
In Basque? Perhaps they would actually drown me into the bog then... :wink:
You've studied that matter closer than I've done but, are you sure that the stitching lines running along the borders represents some kind of edging and not only just that. stitching to keep all layers together?
Please, let us know about the felt. I'm afraid that your source is a little far from me...

Aitor

[tlclark]

Hi Travis.
In Basque? Perhaps they would actually drown me into the bog then... :wink:

Well it would be a loss to us here a RAT, but future re-enactors would love to have a preserved example of 21st century costume. :wink:

Of course that illustrates a lots of problem about discoveries like that. How do we know that the other bog bodies aren't Spaniards!? Also, if you wear your kit and wind up in the bog, that will really confuse future historians!

You've studied that matter closer than I've done but, are you sure that the stitching lines running along the borders represents some kind of edging and not only just that. stitching to keep all layers together?

The line is nearly always there, so there's basically two possibilities.

1. Decoration, either in cloth or tooled leather
2. Practical, meaning an edging/sticthing to hold/bind several layers together, or a natural selvage woven edge.

Looking at the edges, it looks like the edging wraps around the edge of the pterugion, indicating a hemmed or selvage edge, and not just stitching, but I could be wrong, but it could just as easily be a tooled decoration in leather, but given that the interior surface has a textile pattern but the edging doesn't, it looks like some other material is wrapped around the edge to secure it.

Travis

[aitor iriarte]

Travis,
Of course, an edge binding would be the most sensible solution but, as you've already pointed out, why and how was that binding followed over the fridges? :?

Aitor

[tlclark]

Travis,
Of course, an edge binding would be the most sensible solution but, as you've already pointed out, why and how was that binding followed over the fridges? :?

Aitor

This is the question that keeps me awake at night! It looks like the edge should just wrap around the pterugion, but if that was the case, then the fringes would be covered!!

Perhaps the fringe is separate and attached to the edging?! I think that unlikely and that is most likely the natural fringe produced by woven cloth core.

Check out this detail:

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... rugesa.jpg

The fringes are definitely just sewn on the backside of the pteruges, but are coming from an interior core.

Here it looks like it might be two pteruges sandwiched over a cloth interior core, now check out this example.

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... o3deta.jpg

Here the edging goes around all three edges, AND the edging seems to wrap around the edge of the pterugion, so how does the fringe come out from an interior core?! Logically the core should be sealed in by the edging.

It's frustrating.

To bring this back to the topic. I do think it makes sense that the pteruges and subarmalis are of one piece of material, rather than attached later. This would mean that you could cut several layers of flet and cloth and just sew them or edge them together. It struck me as I was thinking about this, that we already have a garment made of one material with pteruges attached....the late hellenistic linothorax.

Could the subarmalis simly be a linothorax made of felt and linen? It would be simple and follow known patterns. Also, the skirts of pteruges on many of these musculata look just like the skirts on the linothorax.

Travis

[aitor iriarte]

Travis,
I think it unlikely that subarmalis and pterugae were made in one piece. Remember that we have at least four superimposed layers of pterugae in the skirt (And I'd say that, most likely, six! hock: ) You simply cannot get them from the subarmalis, unless that subarmalis is made of four to six superimposed felt or textile layers... (Errrh, perhaps 'unlikely' is excessive... :roll: )
On the other hand, your pics are impressive, as always !
I wouldn't worry too much about the second sculpture. I find it too sketchy for using it to settle detail matters but... The Prima Porta (Have you any better resolution version?) wow!!! hock: Man, that is a soumak stitch border, not a continuous leather, felt or fabric edging. It wouldn't seal the core and could run between the fringes!
Therefore, textile or felt pterugae should be seriously considered, even though leather ones cannot be discarded.
Lets return to the first paragraph and let's suppose a multiple-layered, say, felt subarmalis. If each pteruga is made of three layers (two of felt and a fabric core) and we superimpose six of those sandwiches to form the subarmalis, wouldn't it be too thick and rigid to be worn under a cuirass? :? On the other hand, maybe only one layer of the pteruga was integral to the subarmalis and the other two were just stitched to its back...
What do you think?

Aitor

[tlclark]

Aitor

I think you are right that the edging might not be material, but just tight stitching on the Primaporta.

Yes I have larger images.

I am happy to send all the originals of my Primaporta pics to anyone who wants them.

Looking at them, I think sewing things to the back side can be safely excluded. I think that we have a sandwich or laminate pterugion, with a cloth core bound either side with felt, felt and cloth or leather. I think that even if it is leather, it is likely that the exterior is covered in cloth, because of the images I have seen.

If I were making a subarmalis/pteruges today this is how I would do it.

linen covering/felt/linen-fringe core/felt/linen covering.

I need to draw some diagrams to explain how I think this would work.

Travis

[aitor iriarte]

Yes Travis, but try to envisage a subarmalis composed of six superimposed layers of those triple-layered sandwiches! hock:
That's why I suggested to use only the front flet/textile layers for the subarmalis and sewn to the back of each pteruga the middle and back layer...
Your connexion of the multi-layered subarmalis with the Greek linen cuirass is attractive and would easily account for the multiple pterugae layers. The only problem to my mind is that the linothorax seems to be fairly rigid on the vase paintings and I don't know wheter it would work as a cushioned garment wornunder a rigid? cuirass. :?

Aitor

[tlclark]

Yes Travis, but try to envisage a subarmalis composed of six superimposed layers of those triple-layered sandwiches! hock:
That's why I suggested to use only the front flet/textile layers for the subarmalis and sewn to the back of each pteruga the middle and back layer...

Well, it would be well padded!! I guess your right. If you have two layers of pteruges, and each pterugion has at least five layers of cloth, then that would of course mean that the subarmalis has 5 layers for each row of pteruges, as many as 15! that does seem to complicate the matter.

hhmmmm.

I need to sketch this out.

Your connexion of the multi-layered subarmalis with the Greek linen cuirass is attractive and would easily account for the multiple pterugae layers. The only problem to my mind is that the linothorax seems to be fairly rigid on the vase paintings and I don't know wheter it would work as a cushioned garment wornunder a rigid? cuirass. :?

Aitor

Actually, I think it would be quite easy to make a linothorax into a felexible and usable subarmalis. Just leave out the hide glue as you're making it. Instead of multiple layers of linen secured rigidly with glue, you have layers of linen/felt stitched together. It would add a fair amount of puncture resistance to the cuirass as well.

[tlclark]

Yesterday I got the felt samples from the company in NJ, USA.

Took them down to the workbench to test them out.

The 1/2 inch thick felt is prodigious. I took a 1" pine board and placed the sample over it and whacked it several times with a ball-peen hammer.

After substantial force the pine board showed minimal damage.

I eventually succeed in dented the board considerably with the hammer but I was pounding my heart out.

I then did a puncture test. I could not puncture with my awl without difficulty. It required a severe tap with the hammer to puncture and seriously resisited cutting even with a box-cutter.

Since the fibers are netted in all directions the felt resists tearing as well. I couldn't tear it with two pairs of pliers.

The felt also behaves very differently than a piece of modern foam padding. It will compress, but resists compression and continues to resist compression the more you press it. It seems it's cushioning property is increased as you hit it. Even when fully compressed it still provides a substantial amount of resistance. When the industrial foam is compressed, all of its padding properties are gone.

Oh, and its absorbent VERY absorbent. The "Libyan hides" mentioned earlier would be an absolute necessity.

I put the 1/4 inch sample over the 1/2 inch sample and the effect was increased. Seems layering helps quite a bit.

The 1/2" felt is great stuff. I was really impressed with its resistance to puncturing. It must have added a considerable amount of piece of mind to the wearer

This sample is 50% wool and 50% synthetic.

The prices they quoted me are as follows.

1/8" thick for $19 yard
1/4" thick for $30 yard
1/2" thick for $42 yard
1" thick for $68 yard

bolts are 72" across though, so the prices aren't so bad, but higher than I would like.

I don't know if I'm violating a rule about posting vendors, so if anybody wants the contact info, just let me know by PM.

Don't know how this compares to the Hungarian felt mentioned earlier but I think this could be a good subsitute.

I am also awaiting felt samples from a few other manufacturers.

Travis

[aitor iriarte]

Travis,
In the actual state of our thoughts, I think that thick felt would be perhaps only appropriated for a plain subarmalis of the thorachomacus kind.
We're arriving to the interesting conclusion of 'pterugated' subarmalis being an affair of multiple felt or fabric layers.
Do you agree with that? 8)

Aitor

[Gaius Honorius Felix]

I just have a question, how effective would the padded armor be in protection? Wouldn't any sword, especially a gladius, punch right through the padded armor? I don't know if this is true or not, correct me if im wrong; isnt padded armor used for protecting against blunt weapons and blows?

[Carus Andiae]

I remember seeing some experiments on TV - albeit on medieval padded armour - that it's pretty effective against slashing blows, which the Roman Army would be more likely to face than sword thrusts.

Would padded armour be useful for Marines? I seem to recall someone arguing against armour on the ground that it would weigh them down if they fell over board, but with fabric armour this would not be so much of a problem.

[ARudling]

Padded armour is part of a layered system of defence, on its own its ok but not great especially against pointy things.

Remember the most common weapon of war was the spear not the sword.

As for marines with padded armour, suppose it absorbed water quickly, you would soon have a garment that's heavier than mail or seg.

[Martin Wallgren]

And in combination with maile a padded armour is great. T(h)rust me! We actualle tried to stab thru a thin gambeson toped with a butted maile and a armingjack of cotton and linen (aceton) closley fitted onto a sheep carcass with a sharp rondell and a sharmened lutel sword and a sharp spearhead (though on a to short shaft.) The rondel passed twice in ten tries (with effort) and the other two didn´t.

On a show I let my friend thrust at me with his semisharp lutel when wearing that stuff and I was not badly injured. Had a bruise though. But not as blue as the ones from waistersparring. hehe.

Just my two cents.

Martin

[Dan Howard]

The most common threats on any battlefield were from arrows and spear thrusts. If a particular type of armour was not effective against these two weapons, it would not have been worn by anyone.