Roman battlefield found deep inside Germany

[Simplex]

Thanks Robert,
...for claryfying 1) .
As far as 2) is concerned, I still think that the effectiveness of clubs swung by individuals larger than the average roman soldier by at least 10 cm bears a certain "charm of leverage". A hard hit on the helmet is a hard hit on the helmet, don't you agree ? --- a sword/spatha cutting through , a gladius punching through if executed properly, a club at least permanently deforming the helmet/mail if done so, (and maybe the flesh & bones under it), with spikes added surely punching through the helmet/mail as well.
Open to discussion. :wink:
An interesting feat for future "Ancient Warfare" essays, --- don't you think so ?
( BTW: "palestinian clubmen" got me reminiscing "The life of Brian" --- jus' kiddin'.)

Greez

Simplex

[Robert Vermaat]

I still think that the effectiveness of clubs swung by individuals larger than the average roman soldier by at least 10 cm bears a certain "charm of leverage". A hard hit on the helmet is a hard hit on the helmet, don't you agree ? --- a sword/spatha cutting through , a gladius punching through if executed properly, a club at least permanently deforming the helmet/mail if done so, (and maybe the flesh & bones under it), with spikes added surely punching through the helmet/mail as well.
Open to discussion. :wink:

Sure, a hit on the head is a hit on the head, but just the lenght of the weapon does not make it better, surely? I mean, you can only hit with it (if your aim is good), but with a sword you can stab, preferably into the man with the club who is lunging at you.

[Simplex]

......point understood, but ..its not the lenght -- its the range/leverage.
We have a saying here in Germany: "Gar furchtbar wird des Menschen Kraft, wenn er mit dem Hebel schafft!"
Roughly translated: "Workin' with big leverage puts you well 'bove average" or so ..... :wink:
Or: Hit 'em well 'fore they stab you ! (Klonkkkkkk!!!!! :mrgreen: )

Greez

Siggi

And now : an appropriate works on that topic in AW ?!

[marka]

yes roman laws did prohibit trading arms to the barbarians
but
corruption was endemic and its not difficult to see corrupt civil or army officials selling them
also when germanic troops were demobilised from roman armies would the romans have tried to take back weapons that the warriors had conceivably paid for ?
also battlefield spoil even from germanic defeats

at the end of the day "where theres a will there a way"

[D B Campbell]

I only know of Sassanid cavalry being unhorsed by 'Palestinian clubmen' (but where did I read that? I forgot).

Sounds like something fellow RATer-in-absentia Ross Cowan would write about?

[marka]

phil barkers description of the battle of emesa in 272 against the palmyrans i believe,he described the use of palestinians with clubs against cataphracts

[Ross Cowan]

Re. Palestinian clubmen at Emesa, see Zosimus 1.53.

[Robert Vermaat]

Indeed! Thanks guys.

[SigniferOne]

1. Did they have a sort of weapons-embargo then ?

Yes, the Romans laws are clearly intending to prohibit the flow of arms to the barbarians. And the Danish bog finds shows how valued those arms were.

That's an interesting perspective. Would you mind saying a little bit more about how the Danish bog finds show the high premium of Roman weapons, and if there's any literature about it.

[Robert Vermaat]

That's an interesting perspective. Would you mind saying a little bit more about how the Danish bog finds show the high premium of Roman weapons, and if there's any literature about it.

The theory about the weapons being valued is that the weapons which were ofeered to the gods and thrown in the water, were actually the valued pieced - one does not throw bad stuff to the gods.
Jørgensen, Lars, Birger Storgaard and Lone Gebauer Thomsen (eds.) (2007): The Spoils of Victory, the North in the Shadow of the Roman Empire, (Nationalmuseet).

[nithijo]

That's an interesting perspective. Would you mind saying a little bit more about how the Danish bog finds show the high premium of Roman weapons, and if there's any literature about it.

The theory about the weapons being valued is that the weapons which were ofeered to the gods and thrown in the water, were actually the valued pieced - one does not throw bad stuff to the gods.
Jørgensen, Lars, Birger Storgaard and Lone Gebauer Thomsen (eds.) (2007): The Spoils of Victory, the North in the Shadow of the Roman Empire, (Nationalmuseet).

That would be the "commander" sacrifices.

There are a number of sacrifices consisting only of gear from high ranking persons
as opposed to the army sacrifices.

These chaps would normally have a roman sword but everything else including other
weapons would be germanic.

Even the sword fittings and scabbards would be reworked to suit germanic taste.

[Simplex]

Latest news:
[url:2w73d2xe]http://www.hna.de/breakingnews/00_20090915143900_Forscher_finden_Knochen.html[/url]
Essence: Excavations to be terminated next weekend. (...and to be continued next year)
All in all 1200 finds, about 500 of them roman.
Estimated size of the location: about 130 football-fields (nice comparison :wink: ) with only small part of it excavated.
(This has already been said .)
Some bones of donkeys and mules found which remain to be dated.
The need for a museum is still under discussion .
Bye for now -- waiting for the first larger publications on the subject.

Greez

Simplex

[Ron Andrea]

I second--or third, the wow!

Amazing. hock:

[Simplex]

...pushing the envelope a bit further ? or ...did I get any further ?
O.K. while not being successful in digging up larger publications on the Harzhorn subject, I nevertheless got a bit deeper into the materia while reading through the "2000 Jahre Varusschlacht -- Imperium/Konflikt/Mythos"-Catalogue.
It gave me a good roundup on the Illerup/Thorsberg/Nydam finds and their context, ( At this place I'd like to thank D.B. Campbell for bringing my attention "a bit" closer to the Thorsberg finds) as well as a good overview on the "as yet"- situation in scandinavian research of the parallel situation to the Roman Empire in northern Europe.) ["Konflikt"; Various Authors-- pages 132 to 182] IMHO the coverage of the wooden finds from Nydam and Thorsberg could have been a bit more extensive.
Yes, the "Harzhorn" is also covered here from pages 228 to 232 by various authors [The ones who also did the excavations, obviously].
The references here give no clue about more extensive publications yet.
Also in the "Mythos"-part of that catalogue I ran into a picture of a part of the Trajan Column showing "barbarian" roman auxialiaries attacking Dacians. They are bviously wearing roman helmets and oval (?) shields, but also beards as opposed to the regular roman soldiers
--- and they use clubs. Gotten courious by this ( its from spiral number 11, scene 70 on the Trajan column) I did a "quickndirty"-search running into further information and another picture of barbarians using clubs (as far as my eyes tell me :wink: ) e.g. in spiral 6, scene 38 .
The appropriate links were:
[url:2ypd7kso]http://cheiron.humanities.mcmaster.ca/trajan/index.html[/url]
http://arachne.uni-koeln.de/browser/inde...ief_nr=038
http://arachne.uni-koeln.de/browser/inde...ief_nr=070
[ in case of problems: please cut 'n paste ]
But seriously I'm asking myself whether this is "real-life" or just a means of clarifying the difference between Romans and Barbarians?
After all : these pictures are from before 113 AD -- still a bit of time before the presumed date of the Harzhorn.
Since I have not found any similar pictures from the column of Marc Aurel it seems that I effectively haven't got very far, still.

Greez

Simplex

BTW: I think that at least for persons familiar with the german language this "2000 Jahre Varusschlacht" publication is a worthwhile buy.
======================================================================================================================
Quod licet Dave Bowie non licet Bon Jovi !! :wink:

[D B Campbell]

... and they use clubs. Gotten courious by this ( its from spiral number 11, scene 70 on the Trajan column) I did a "quickndirty"-search running into further information and another picture of barbarians using clubs (as far as my eyes tell me :wink: ) e.g. in spiral 6, scene 38 .
The appropriate links were:
http://cheiron.humanities.mcmaster.ca/trajan/index.html etc
...
But seriously I'm asking myself whether this is "real-life" or just a means of clarifying the difference between Romans and Barbarians?

There is a school of thought that the Trajan's Column iconography has been simplified. But Tacitus certainly claimed that one Germanic tribe used clubs: http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?p=146137#p146137. I suppose it makes sense.