Congratulations, Germany

[Jona Lendering]

... and congratulations to all of us, because Berlin was made the capital of a reunited Germany, and all the museums have been renovated. I can't wait to go to the city again and enjoy all those works of art. (Only ancient art of course.)

[caiustarquitius]

because Berlin was made the capital of a reunited Germany

I don´t agree, since IMO not a lot of positive things ever came out of Prussia...
And moving the capital from Bonn to Berlin was as unnecessary as can be, and was so expensive - that money would have been better put into the education system.

and all the museums have been renovated

That is great indeed, but would have been possible also if Berlin would not have become capital again...

[Justin of the New Yorkii]

I don´t agree, since IMO not a lot of positive things ever came out of Prussia...

The Potsdam Giants

[caiustarquitius]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Prussian_War
And then came the warmonger:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck
the jerk:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_I,_German_Emperor
and finally the clown:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_II._(Deutsches_Reich)
a succession of incompetent fools, whose incompetent foreign policy was one of the cornerstones that made this wonderful event possible:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I
and which sparked, or better, ignited the strong German nationalism which the world learned to value so much between 1933 and 1945...

IMO the Austrians were the better Germans (apart from the über-asshole from Braunau am Inn, of course)

And so, apparently to honour this valuable part of German history, the prussian capital is once again the the capital of national Germany. Jeez. Nothing good can come out of that, methinks.

Here is a lullaby from Baden:

Schlaf, mein Kind, schlaf leis
Dort draußen geht der Preuß!
Deinen Vater hat er umgebracht
Deine Mutter hat er arm gemacht
Und wer nicht schläft in guter Ruh
Dem drückt der Preuß die Augen zu
Schlaf, mein Kind, schlaf leis
Dort draußen geht der Preuß!

Schlaf, mein Kind, schlaf leis
Dort draußen geht der Preuß!
Der Preuß hat eine blut'ge Hand
Die streckt er übers bad'sche Land
und alle müssen wir stille sein
Als wie dein Vater unterm Stein
Schlaf, mein Kind, schlaf leis
Dort draußen geht der Preuß!

Schlaf, mein Kind, schlaf leis
Dort draußen geht der Preuß!
Zu Rastatt auf der Schanz
Da spielt er auf zum Tanz
Da spielt er auf mit Pulver und Blei
So macht er alle Badener frei
Schlaf, mein Kind, schlaf leis
Dort draußen geht der Preuß!

Schlaf, mein Kind, schlaf leis
Dort draußen geht der Preuß!
Gott aber weiß, wie lang er geht
Bis daß die Freiheit aufersteht
Und wo dein Vater liegt, mein Schatz
Da hat noch mancher Preuße Platz!
Schrei, mein Kindlein, schrei's:
Dort draußen liegt der Preuß!

[Justin of the New Yorkii]

Maybe not a topic that should be joked about, but no offense was intended.

[Jona Lendering]

Nothing good can come out of that, methinks.

I think you're a bit too pessimistic; modern Germany has atoned for its past, should no longer carry the world upon its shoulders, and is, in my view, "ein kerngesundes Land", and this applies to Berlin as well.

[caiustarquitius]

Of course I am.
But as far as Berlin is concerned it is a bad sign, like a remembrance of the "good old times", to have it as capital. Bonn was less pompous, more modest. And should have stayed capital. Or a really central place should have become capital. Something like this:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelpunkt_Deutschlands
Anyway, I would have supported a Europe of Regions or http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_der_Regionen and a final abolishement of those stupid national states...

[Jona Lendering]

But as far as Berlin is concerned it is a bad sign, like a remembrance of the "good old times", to have it as capital. Bonn was less pompous, more modest.

That is true, and I like Bonn (especially the museum!), which has the charm of all the cities along the Rhine. And yet, I think it was good that of the two capitals of the two Germanies, Berlin was selected, not Bonn. Chosing Bonn would have been identical to saying that the GDR had been "conquered" by the Federal Republic; by keeping Berlin, the unification resembled a merger, not a take-over.

final abolishement of those stupid national states...

They have indeed had their time; I wonder what will be next - a combination of regionalism and supranationalism looks like a plausible development.

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

Comparing the modern region Berlin-Brandenburg with historic Prussia is just as much as intelligent as comparing the folks of an Louisiana trailer park with the confederacy.
But again we see that still not every brave German citizen is being able to contain his embarrassing anti-germaness not even on the national holiday when the wall fell, what is pretty much a joy for most Germans (... except those 12 percent that want the wall back perhaps).

P.S. Thanks also, that it's now adequate on RAT to post patheticly stereotypical southgerman tunes displaying Prussians as murders and best served dead .. (of course only for historical reasons.) ..a smiley makes up for it.

[caiustarquitius]

LOL
As far as I am concerned, I didn´t compare

the modern region Berlin-Brandenburg with historic Prussia

I meant to say that Berlin was prussia´s capital, and that I detest what prussia "achieved" (Bruderkrieg, Deutsch-Französischer Krieg etc.), hence among other reasons, dissent the decision that Berlin became capital of re-united Germany. Apart from the ridiculous / outrageous costs for moving the gouvernment, which, as I said, would have better been invested in education. Bonn was a modest capital, and fitted better to modern Germany, than the dead carcass of imperial Berlin and Nazi-Berlin, now again becoming a pompuous place, where Protzen, Prunken, Prahlen is agenda.
I certainly don´t want the wall back. I am very glad to have had my family re-united. But I don´t see the necessity of the German national institutions within the EU. My Bavarian parliament would be enough for me, next step European Parliament. What is the parliament in Berlin for, except costing money? And certainly I´d rather see a Bavarian soccer team in the Worldcup. If I were interested in soccer, I mean...

The lullaby by Ludwig Pfau is from the "Eulenspiegel" and was published in 1849. Adressed to the Kartätschenprinz (Wilhelm 1), sort of. Not that I propagate its contents, it is more a historic source to show what the rest of Germany though about the prussians. ^^

not even on the national holiday

Sorry, but not even on a national holiday I will change my opinion about prussia. I am not anti-German, btw. You didn´t read carefully. I am sort of anti-prussian, which is, for the educated reader, not the same, plus, I am sort of anti-national-states.

a combination of regionalism and supranationalism looks like a plausible development.

Yup. Or a re-birth of strong nationalism. Which the gods may prevent... o0

[Jona Lendering]

as I said, would have better been invested in education.

Don't know. Keeping Bonn as capital would have resulted in more frustration among the "Ossies" - and I got the impression that the frustration was (is?) already pretty high.

dead carcass of imperial Berlin and Nazi-Berlin, now again becoming a pompuous place, where Protzen, Prunken, Prahlen is agenda.

I am not German, and haven't been in Berlin for some years; yet, I am not certain whether "dead carcass of imperial Berlin and Nazi-Berlin" is an adequate description. It has, over the past century-and-a-half, also been a capital of the artistic avantgarde. Strawinsky's Sacre du Printemps was recognized as a masterpiece in Berlin, while the French and English hated it. The Berliner Luft has, with an interruption from 1933 to 1945, always been healthy for artists; the city really is more than a dead carcass.

I don´t see the necessity of the German national institutions within the EU. My Bavarian parliament would be enough for me, next step European Parliament. ... I am sort of anti-national-states.

Aren't you in fact saying that your nationality is Bavarian?

a combination of regionalism and supranationalism looks like a plausible development.

Yup. Or a re-birth of strong nationalism. Which the gods may prevent... o0

That would indeed be a terrible development.

[caiustarquitius]

Don't know. Keeping Bonn as capital would have resulted in more frustration among the "Ossies" - and I got the impression that the frustration was (is?) already pretty high.

Nowadays yes, but back then I don´t think anyone would have opposed Bonn remaining capital for this reason.

I am not German, and haven't been in Berlin for some years; yet, I am not certain whether "dead carcass of imperial Berlin and Nazi-Berlin" is an adequate description. It has, over the past century-and-a-half, also been a capital of the artistic avantgarde. Strawinsky's Sacre du Printemps was recognized as a masterpiece in Berlin, while the French and English hated it. The Berliner Luft has, with an interruption from 1933 to 1945, always been healthy for artists; the city really is more than a dead carcass.

It is now, right, but it wasn´t in 1990. I also didn´t see "artistic avantgarde" in Berlin in the 80ies. It was super-backwater compared to the Ruhrpott, Hamburg, Frankfurt or Munich. Sort of still is. Compare it to London or Paris.

Aren't you in fact saying that your nationality is Bavarian?

No It just happens so that the local gouvernment / parliament is in Munich, which is the capital of the German state Bavaria. I wouldn´t mind having the thing called differently, having the parliament somewhere else, etc. as long as it is a regional thing, where regional problems can be handled. Thus it might make more sense to split things in Europe for geographical reasons or similar. The historic boundaries are quite often quite a nonsense.

[Jona Lendering]

I am not German, and haven't been in Berlin for some years; yet, I am not certain whether "dead carcass of imperial Berlin and Nazi-Berlin" is an adequate description. It has, over the past century-and-a-half, also been a capital of the artistic avantgarde. Strawinsky's Sacre du Printemps was recognized as a masterpiece in Berlin, while the French and English hated it. The Berliner Luft has, with an interruption from 1933 to 1945, always been healthy for artists; the city really is more than a dead carcass.

It is now, right, but it wasn´t in 1990. I also didn´t see "artistic avantgarde" in Berlin in the 80ies. It was super-backwater compared to the Ruhrpott, Hamburg, Frankfurt or Munich.

You are the German/Bavarian/expert over here, but I wonder if this is true. I remember that for techno music, you had to go to Berlin; before that, many bands went to Berlin to make records - think of David Bowie's "Berlin Trilogy", Lou Reed's masterpiece Berlin, and the two U2 records; think of the industrial music of Einstürzende Neubauten and so on. Or, if you prefer classical music, think of Zirkus Karajan. Dutch actors loved to go to Berlin and Pottsdam, finding the audience the best in Western Europe. It was the place where Wim Wenders made Der Himmel über Berlin (my all time favorite movie). And so on.

I may have too optimistic a view, but for me, "Berlin" was always the heart of Europe: here, the division that tore apart the old world was most visible, and this created a sense of profound sadness that influenced the arts (David Bowie, Heroes, B-side; John le Carre, The Spy Who Came in from the Cold; and so on). Somehow, I had the impression that the avantgarde seemed gathered here because here you felt the division of Europe.

As I said, I may be wrong; but for me, Berlin has always been one of the few cities that really mattered - and certainly the only one in Germany (much though I love the Rhineland towns). I was glad for the Berliners that their city was reunited ("Jetzt wächst zusammen, was zusammengehört"), and was not surprised that this big artistic and social experiment changed from the capital of eastern Germany into the capital of the reunited nation.

Most importantly, since the unification, Germany has become a more normal state, which may have its historical capital. "Bonn", although sympathetic and less given to "Protzen, Prunken, Prahlen", would have been an anomaly.

**

Somehow it is fitting to round of this declaration of love with this movie clip. Servus.

[P. Clodius Secundus]

I see that re-unification of Germany remains a work in progress. This must be a comfort for the French. In any case, congratulations Germany. Just twenty-five more years and you'll have beaten your record. Keep up the good work. I was there in 1989 with the U.S. Army as my father had been a generation before. I was in Berlin a month earlier during the "celebration" of the 40th anninverary of the DDR. The differences between the east and west couldn't have been more striking. When the wall fell, while everyone else around rejoiced, we were left wondering what came next and if it were some kind of trick. I guess in a sense we were the sober drivers at the big party. Thank God that cooler heads prevailed, and the "balloon never went up" as we used to say. A salute to Mikhail Gorbachov that it didn't.
I just watched for a second time as Lech Walesa started the dominos falling. I'm proud to have been there. Somewhere above Willi Brandt, JFK, Ronald Reagan, John Paul II, Winston Churchill, and Peter Fechter are smiling while Eric Honeker, and Stalin are spinning in their new walled states.

[caiustarquitius]

Jona, this is all correct, of course. There was certainly a lot going on, but I think a lot was perceived by foreign visitors as "Avantgardistic" BECAUSE it happened in Berlin. Einstürzende Neubauten, of course, but then you have so many bands of the German "underground", many of which are not less interesting, which are NOT from Berlin. Deine Lakaien / Quntal: Karlsruhe/Munich, Tommi Stumpff: Düsseldorf, who was basically the inventor of German / French techno (Berlin was not actually THE techno place, it was just where the Love Parade was later on, but techno was made mostly elsewhere in the Republic Kraftwerk: Düsseldorf / the German Avantgarde , DAF: Wuppertal / Düsseldorf, Die Krupps: Düsseldorf, Project Pitchfork from Hamburg, DJ Marusha was from Nürnberg and DJ WestBam from Münster, both moved to Berlin after 1990, could go on endlessly...)
Karajan: certainly. There were equally famous orchestras in other German cities as well, think of the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra eg.
Karajan was exceptional, but then, what was first: egg or hen? Would the Berlin Philharmony have been what it was without Karajan? And: Karajan probably felt comfortable in Berlin, it must have reminded him of the epitome of his career as Hitler´s "Staatskapellmeister" (from April 20th 1939 onwards). Karajan had joined the NSDAP as early as 1933.

Wenders: Certainly, but Faßbinder was in Munich.
I think in all these terms Berlin is certainly overrated. The situation is different for foreign artists which may have come to Berlin out of the reasons you named. But for what was going on in Germany, Berlin was a slumbering backwater.

Dutch actors loved to go to Berlin and Pottsdam

To Potsdam? Pre-1990? Sure?

"Bonn", although sympathetic and less given to "Protzen, Prunken, Prahlen", would have been an anomaly.

Yes, but why not make sthg different? An anomaly because the UK has London, France Paris, Italy Rome, and Austria Vienna? It would have been a strong statement about which tradition Germany wants NOT to stand in.

Germany has become a more normal state, which may have its historical capital.

Sure, but that would have been Frankfurt, or Regensburg, then.
Berlin was capital of Germany 1871-1945
Frankfurt 1356-1792, 1815-66 (Bundesversammlung), 1848-49
Regensburg 1663-1806 Reichstag

[Jona Lendering]

Dutch actors loved to go to Berlin and Pottsdam

To Potsdam? Pre-1990? Sure?

Yep, sure. Here is the biography of an actress who preferred the other half of the divided city. I remember her in a Goethe play in a theater near the Wall.

It would have been a strong statement about which tradition Germany wants NOT to stand in.

Yes, but should it? I mean, terrible things have happened in Germany, and Prussian militarism was certainly a factor. But Germany has atoned for that; you know that I think that Germany's Vergangenheitsbewältigung is the greatest success of the Bundesrepublik (I am aware that there are still skinheads and neonazis, but you get my point). We can take back things from that past, and there's nothing wrong in remembering the good things of nineteenth-century Germany, in which Berlin was so important.

Berlin was capital of Germany 1871-1945

It remained the capital of the GDR. Berlin has in fact always been the capital of Germany since 1871, having to share that honor with Bonn only from 1949 to 1991. (I had to look that up.)

[caiustarquitius]

It remained the capital of the GDR.

, Well, East Berlin did.
What I meant: It is not really the historical capital.

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

Cheez, What I thought was gonna be a nice tribute on a joyous occasion quickly became very ugly. I thought this kind of thing would be flagged or at least cautioned on old RAT. Everyone here has always been allowed their opinions to a degree but I'm a little embarrassed . BTW- my father-in-law was from Prussia and was a very fine man.
Sorry I fell for this one.

[caiustarquitius]

my father-in-law was from Prussia and was a very fine man.

So was one of my grandfathers. That doesn´t say a lot about prussian politics, though.

Plus, I don´t see where it´s ugly. It´s just different standpoints and different arguments. Would it be ugly if we talked about e.g. Alexander the Great? What´s the difference when talking about prussian emperors?

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

As far as I am concerned, I didn´t compare ... "the modern region Berlin-Brandenburg with historic Prussia "

We both know pretty well what you wanted to imply with your reply to Jonas words ...

because Berlin was made the capital of a reunited Germany

I don´t agree, since IMO not a lot of positive things ever came out of Prussia...

... you deliberately connected the current development in a region with it's people and the grave past, quite obviously. Everyone can see it there and from your further posts what you're up to.
And it's not the first time you used this forum to propagate your absurd cultural / political ideas and assessments about certain regions, cities and their people, which aren't based on facts but an ignorant, oversimplified and stereotypical world view. But hijacking a thread titled "congratulations, Germany" on that special day is even more poor.
You may think yourself very funny, clever or something by putting a smiley behind your words or arguing about semantics afterwards ("read carefully" ,IMO, "what I meant ...") and posting that embarassing propaganda crap tune, thinly disguised as historic information. - What a coincidence this happens right now, isn't it? - But you're not. You're plain insulting and derogatory.

If you want to share your nowadays political ideas with others, there's certainly places in the internet.

I thought this kind of thing would be flagged or at least cautioned on old RAT.

The RAT-rules are unfortunately quite useless if mods themselves break them ..


Anyway thanks all others for your contributions. Especially Randi for having served here.