Poll: What is this knife handle?
This poll is closed.
Clasp knife
33.33%
2 33.33%
Razor
33.33%
2 33.33%
Utility/pen knife
33.33%
2 33.33%
Total 6 vote(s) 100%
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Opinions needed; clasp knife or razor??
#1
Greetings!

Wanting to make some bronze handled knives, this one is a prime candidate: https://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/60205

BUT .... it is marked as a clasp knife. However, there is no hole for the pin and the cross hatched decoration is unbroken, the cut-out for holding the blade is slanted inward, not outward as one would expect with a clasp-knife and there is no real recess to hold the blade when folded. So I am in serious doubt about that identification.

SO ..... please give your opinion on this piece. What is it most likely to be clasp-knife or razor or utility/pen knife? I will try to add a poll, but feel free to comment and reason.
Salvete et Valete

Nil volentibus arduum
Return the Romans to Batavian soil!

Robert P. Wimmers
Foundation Archeological Themepark Limes
>http://www.ferrumantica.eu (The NEW Fabrica of Vvlpivs!)
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#2
This (I think) is a detailed illustration of this item:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c...205%29.jpg

And this is a clasp Knife from Piddington, Northants. for comparison:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/staticarchive/74c16...94e4542b6d
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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#3
Yes, indeed it is, it is also in the finds.org.uk link, the second picture. That gives a really good view of the base, causing my doubt about it being a folding knife ..... What do you think?
Salvete et Valete

Nil volentibus arduum
Return the Romans to Batavian soil!

Robert P. Wimmers
Foundation Archeological Themepark Limes
>http://www.ferrumantica.eu (The NEW Fabrica of Vvlpivs!)
Reply
#4
(08-13-2017, 11:14 AM)Robert Wrote: Greetings!

Wanting to make some bronze handled knives, this one is a prime candidate: https://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/60205

BUT .... it is marked as a clasp knife. However, there is no hole for the pin and the cross hatched decoration is unbroken, the cut-out for holding the blade is slanted inward, not outward as one would expect with a clasp-knife and there is no real recess to hold the blade when folded. So I am in serious doubt about that identification.

SO ..... please give your opinion on this piece. What is it most likely to be clasp-knife or razor or utility/pen knife? I will try to add a poll, but feel free to comment and reason.

I would say its an unfinished handle for a folding knife.... Artifacts has a good entry for what there is called a "Pen Knife" also mentions bone handled examples:

http://artefacts.mom.fr/en/result.php?id...fmode=vign

check the above link for this which I think is more like it : Guiot 2003: T. Guiot, Couteau pliant en forme de gladiateur à Saint-Patrice (Indre-et-Loire), Instrumentum 17, 2003, 20. télécharger

Bone examples: http://artefacts.mom.fr/en/result.php?id...fmode=vign
I suspect some are Razors
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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#5
Oh, good find! Wonderful specimen

The only thing against the "work in progress" theory would be the iron residue of a blade found in cleft. And would it be cast without the ridge to hold the blade or no indication of it to act a guide to secondary sawing or chiselling?
Salvete et Valete

Nil volentibus arduum
Return the Romans to Batavian soil!

Robert P. Wimmers
Foundation Archeological Themepark Limes
>http://www.ferrumantica.eu (The NEW Fabrica of Vvlpivs!)
Reply
#6
You could be right but that would mean it would have to be a fixed blade... and I would say the evidence is inconclusive at this point...

"The clasp contains a vertical slot for the knife on the reverse. This slot contains a small amount of iron corrosion."

This may or may not be actual remains of a blade but could be contamination from another source?

Penknife all: http://artefacts.mom.fr/en/results.php?f...ton=Search

Given the numbers and variety it perhaps would not be unexpected to find incomplete examples?
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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#7
I have made a clasp knife the hound and hare one, looking at this one I would say it is a clasp knife judging from the side angle and the curve of the body, however it was possibly cast in wax from a generic mould and the slot was then melted into the wax before covering in clay and then finished in bronze. I think someone forgot to  do this  Blush Blush just about to fit blade then #*it #*it #*it. The iron corrosion  could come from imputitys in  the clay used in the casting it my have not been cleaned completely seeing the gaf made. Robert I would do this as a clasp knife and put the slot in. I do like these knifes and the many subject matters used to achieve the handle.
                     
Regards Brennivs  Big Grin
Woe Ye The Vanquished
                     Brennvs 390 BC
When you have all this why do you envy our mud huts
                     Caratacvs
Centvrio Brennivs COH I Dacorivm (Roma Antiqvia)
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#8
Thanks for the input, everyone!

OK, this is what I came up with as a potential design based on all the links and hints. Taking orders Big Grin !

   
Salvete et Valete

Nil volentibus arduum
Return the Romans to Batavian soil!

Robert P. Wimmers
Foundation Archeological Themepark Limes
>http://www.ferrumantica.eu (The NEW Fabrica of Vvlpivs!)
Reply
#9
Although this type of folding knife with elaborate handle seems to have been popular, this does not preclude there being knives with similar handles but fixed blades. This is an example:

http://artefacts.mom.fr/en/result.php?id...find=knife handle&pagenum=1&affmode=vign

The material is different but the principle remains valid.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
#10
(08-14-2017, 09:55 PM)Renatus Wrote: Although this type of folding knife with elaborate handle seems to have been popular, this does not preclude there being knives with similar handles but fixed blades. This is an example:

http://artefacts.mom.fr/en/result.php?id...find=knife handle&pagenum=1&affmode=vign

The material is different but the principle remains valid.

Yes of course theres no doubt of that... the attachment method is the problem, perhaps you could solder a blade in place...

I rather like this sandel and sock knife which comes in both varieties only one of the 12 examples shown is a folding knife:

http://artefacts.mom.fr/en/result.php?id...fmode=vign
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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#11
The attachment is indeed a matter of thought, although soldering and brazing were commonly used by the Romans. Brazing here is out, but soldering is certainly a good option. Looking at the drawing, it seems as if the socket for the blade has been crimped, too. It is very similar to the way a Roman scalpel blade is inserted into the handle.

From a business point of view, would a folding knife sell better then a fixed blade, I wonder?
Salvete et Valete

Nil volentibus arduum
Return the Romans to Batavian soil!

Robert P. Wimmers
Foundation Archeological Themepark Limes
>http://www.ferrumantica.eu (The NEW Fabrica of Vvlpivs!)
Reply
#12
(08-15-2017, 07:57 AM)Robert Wrote: From a business point of view, would a folding knife sell better then a fixed blade, I wonder?

The folding knife looks more interesting and would probably sell better. On the other hand, would it be possible to offer both: have a basic handle and fit a blade to order?
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
#13
(08-15-2017, 07:57 AM)Robert Wrote: The attachment is indeed a matter of thought, although soldering and brazing were commonly used by the Romans. Brazing here is out, but soldering is certainly a good option. Looking at the drawing, it seems as if the socket for the blade has been crimped, too. It is very similar to the way a Roman scalpel blade is inserted into the handle.

From a business point of view, would a folding knife sell better then a fixed blade, I wonder?

A description of one of the leg/foot variety indicates probably lead Solder...


Piercebridge:
"The leg is hollow and the calf is divided in two longitudinally by a vertical slot, which
originally accommodated the remains of what was probably an iron blade, now missing but
noted by the finders upon discovery. Iron corrosion and a white substance, possibly lead solder,
are visible within the slot."

https://finds.org.uk/documents/britannia...02004).pdf



I would say a folding knife would be a better seller.... the blades not big enough to be a problem, so you could sell it to anyone including museum shops...
Ivor

"And the four bare walls stand on the seashore. a wreck a skeleton a monument of that instability and vicissitude to which all things human are subject. Not a dwelling within sight, and the farm labourer, and curious traveller, are the only persons that ever visit the scene where once so many thousands were congregated." T.Lewin 1867
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