05-13-2007, 12:54 AM
Well, I am somewhat overwhelmed by all the responses !
As Jason Hoffman remarked, if you study something for 3 years ( or over 30 years in my case!), you get a 'feel' for it - and an appreciation of just how little we really 'know' and how much is pure speculation.We start by taking an interest in things military, and then broaden our interests in an effort to understand more.
Of course, we can't know one way or the other, as I started off by saying.(Until a corbridge chest/rosetta stone turns up, perhaps an undoubteded greek cuirass in a Scythian tomb in South Russia ? )
As an example, Sophocles (495-406 b.c. ), acknowleged as one of the three great greek tragedians, is known to have written 123 plays, of which we have a mere 7 ( most incomplete) and fragments of others, with the latest fragment being the one from the 'Epigoni'.
To Stefanos : I meant no disrespect, and was not 'ignoring' your post - I just didn't want to complicate matters with reference to 'longbow' type weapons. There are plenty of references to Greek armour being pierced by standard Asiatic/Greek weapons ( and special pleading such as 'it could have got round the armour' doesn't wash) -think how the remnants of the Spartans met their end at Thermopylae, for instance. Or again, Sphacteria.
To Giannis: Your point is noteworthy, and just goes to show how unreliable a single source can be - no depiction ( at least that I am aware of) in Egyptian art, or Persian art either, yet from other sources (greek pottery and literature) we know of Persians wearing tube-and-yoke cuirasses.And no depictions in Greek art of the tube-and -yoke before aprox 500b.c. (unless something that can be reliably dated turns up tomorrow) either. And yes, two types of body armour, two names, seems logical to me !Certainly my hypothesis could well be incorrect, but it is consistent with the evidence, and while anyone can point to flaws as I said earlier, the trick is to look at everything and come up with an overall view. Many thanks for your laudes.
To D.B. Campbell - I took the translation from the penguin classic, not having Loeb to hand,and 'animal skins' does seem better. I don't think the hypothesis hangs on one point, even without Pollux, the overall consistency is there, and I stuck largely to literature in this case - other arguments can be made.
And yes, all the research in "Warfare in the Classical World" was mine, and mine alone.
To Sean Manning: many tks for the full Alcaeus quote! , but it still sounds as if the poem is a "heroic" one - references in Greek literature and art to contemporary events don't commence until just after the Persian wars ,in Athens. I agree that H. was saving space by not explaining things his readers knew - which also implies his readers were not familiar with corselets of linen.
To Ruben: I agree with you that there is no evidence for 'subarmalis' type garments in Greek/Hellenistic times. The stiff/rigid types of armour didn't require it, and a mediterranean/middle eastern climate too hot to be conducive to thick padded garments! It is only necessary for flexible armour such as Celtic invented (in a cold climate ! )mail.My gut feeling is that 'sub-armalis' type garments came in with mail, and spread to other types of armour.
To Matt Lanteigne: I am not biased, but as you can see, there are many 'linophiles', so I merely put forward a case for leather. But if I am biased, what does your signature say about you ?LOL We must each put forward a best case for our causes, surely?
Narratio resumetur.......
regards to all, Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
As Jason Hoffman remarked, if you study something for 3 years ( or over 30 years in my case!), you get a 'feel' for it - and an appreciation of just how little we really 'know' and how much is pure speculation.We start by taking an interest in things military, and then broaden our interests in an effort to understand more.
Of course, we can't know one way or the other, as I started off by saying.(Until a corbridge chest/rosetta stone turns up, perhaps an undoubteded greek cuirass in a Scythian tomb in South Russia ? )
As an example, Sophocles (495-406 b.c. ), acknowleged as one of the three great greek tragedians, is known to have written 123 plays, of which we have a mere 7 ( most incomplete) and fragments of others, with the latest fragment being the one from the 'Epigoni'.
To Stefanos : I meant no disrespect, and was not 'ignoring' your post - I just didn't want to complicate matters with reference to 'longbow' type weapons. There are plenty of references to Greek armour being pierced by standard Asiatic/Greek weapons ( and special pleading such as 'it could have got round the armour' doesn't wash) -think how the remnants of the Spartans met their end at Thermopylae, for instance. Or again, Sphacteria.
To Giannis: Your point is noteworthy, and just goes to show how unreliable a single source can be - no depiction ( at least that I am aware of) in Egyptian art, or Persian art either, yet from other sources (greek pottery and literature) we know of Persians wearing tube-and-yoke cuirasses.And no depictions in Greek art of the tube-and -yoke before aprox 500b.c. (unless something that can be reliably dated turns up tomorrow) either. And yes, two types of body armour, two names, seems logical to me !Certainly my hypothesis could well be incorrect, but it is consistent with the evidence, and while anyone can point to flaws as I said earlier, the trick is to look at everything and come up with an overall view. Many thanks for your laudes.
To D.B. Campbell - I took the translation from the penguin classic, not having Loeb to hand,and 'animal skins' does seem better. I don't think the hypothesis hangs on one point, even without Pollux, the overall consistency is there, and I stuck largely to literature in this case - other arguments can be made.
And yes, all the research in "Warfare in the Classical World" was mine, and mine alone.
To Sean Manning: many tks for the full Alcaeus quote! , but it still sounds as if the poem is a "heroic" one - references in Greek literature and art to contemporary events don't commence until just after the Persian wars ,in Athens. I agree that H. was saving space by not explaining things his readers knew - which also implies his readers were not familiar with corselets of linen.
To Ruben: I agree with you that there is no evidence for 'subarmalis' type garments in Greek/Hellenistic times. The stiff/rigid types of armour didn't require it, and a mediterranean/middle eastern climate too hot to be conducive to thick padded garments! It is only necessary for flexible armour such as Celtic invented (in a cold climate ! )mail.My gut feeling is that 'sub-armalis' type garments came in with mail, and spread to other types of armour.
To Matt Lanteigne: I am not biased, but as you can see, there are many 'linophiles', so I merely put forward a case for leather. But if I am biased, what does your signature say about you ?LOL We must each put forward a best case for our causes, surely?
Narratio resumetur.......
regards to all, Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
