04-17-2004, 10:30 AM
My goodness, this is getting interesting!<br>
<br>
As a general comment on the faith and reason posts, I see the point about faith being divorced from reason, and I suppose it must be, in essence. I remember reading the teleological argument for the existence of god, which (vastly simplified) goes :<br>
<br>
I found a rock in a desert and I thought, hmmm... that could be formed by wind, sun, erosion etc. Natural forces. I understand it. I wandered further and found a swiss watch. That is too complex to be formed by natural forces, therefore someone must have left it. The universe is extraordinarily complex, therefore, someone must have dropped the universe watch.<br>
<br>
The trouble with this sort of thing is that if there could ever be a definitive proof, faith and the mystery would vanish. If God, Jesus or an Angel ever turned up at my door, spent a week with my family and demonstrated their reality, I would be forced into an acceptance, much as I am with a table. It exists in such an obvious way that I can't 'believe' in it. I don't have faith in a table, because I know it's there. It would be a pretty boring world with such certainties, in my opinion.<br>
<br>
I always thought, that if there is a god, (Big man, white beard) he would not be the slightest bit interested in making automata to run about. It would be dull. However, people with free will would choose to believe or not, to turn to god or away. That would be infinitely valuable.<br>
<br>
The trouble with this is that I don't actually think there is much choice in the matter. Vincula said he chose to have faith, but I think that implies a rational logical appraisal. I don't think he could now choose not to believe in God. I couldn't, because as I said, my belief isn't based on anything logical. How could I ever reach a point where new information makes me change if I never had any information in the first place?<br>
<br>
Therefore, I think it is wrong to mock those with faith, or those without it. None of us have any choice in the matter. It's like criticising people for the colour of their eyes. You might not like the greenies, or consider them insufferable even, with their 'I'm so lucky to have green eyes' approach, but you can't have green and they can't have brown.<br>
<br>
It's easy to pour scorn on the logical failures and inconsistencies of organised religion and Christianty has its fair share, though anything humans have used for two thousand years would.<br>
<br>
As a final point, my wife used to be annoyed at my apparent callousness when watching tragic news stories. However, my comments were and are a defence against empathising with extraordinary pain. I do not want to have my emotions and my pity engaged on a daily basis. It is exhausting, selfish though that sounds.<br>
<br>
The Passion is in some ways, the same thing. It breaks through the protective veneer that is probably necessary to get on with life. That is valuable, but I couldn't watch it every week. I would have to become facetious just to survive it.<br>
<br>
Thank you Nathan and Valamber et al. I haven't been this interested in a string since finding out about Roman shield shapes.<br>
<br>
Conn <p></p><i></i>
<br>
As a general comment on the faith and reason posts, I see the point about faith being divorced from reason, and I suppose it must be, in essence. I remember reading the teleological argument for the existence of god, which (vastly simplified) goes :<br>
<br>
I found a rock in a desert and I thought, hmmm... that could be formed by wind, sun, erosion etc. Natural forces. I understand it. I wandered further and found a swiss watch. That is too complex to be formed by natural forces, therefore someone must have left it. The universe is extraordinarily complex, therefore, someone must have dropped the universe watch.<br>
<br>
The trouble with this sort of thing is that if there could ever be a definitive proof, faith and the mystery would vanish. If God, Jesus or an Angel ever turned up at my door, spent a week with my family and demonstrated their reality, I would be forced into an acceptance, much as I am with a table. It exists in such an obvious way that I can't 'believe' in it. I don't have faith in a table, because I know it's there. It would be a pretty boring world with such certainties, in my opinion.<br>
<br>
I always thought, that if there is a god, (Big man, white beard) he would not be the slightest bit interested in making automata to run about. It would be dull. However, people with free will would choose to believe or not, to turn to god or away. That would be infinitely valuable.<br>
<br>
The trouble with this is that I don't actually think there is much choice in the matter. Vincula said he chose to have faith, but I think that implies a rational logical appraisal. I don't think he could now choose not to believe in God. I couldn't, because as I said, my belief isn't based on anything logical. How could I ever reach a point where new information makes me change if I never had any information in the first place?<br>
<br>
Therefore, I think it is wrong to mock those with faith, or those without it. None of us have any choice in the matter. It's like criticising people for the colour of their eyes. You might not like the greenies, or consider them insufferable even, with their 'I'm so lucky to have green eyes' approach, but you can't have green and they can't have brown.<br>
<br>
It's easy to pour scorn on the logical failures and inconsistencies of organised religion and Christianty has its fair share, though anything humans have used for two thousand years would.<br>
<br>
As a final point, my wife used to be annoyed at my apparent callousness when watching tragic news stories. However, my comments were and are a defence against empathising with extraordinary pain. I do not want to have my emotions and my pity engaged on a daily basis. It is exhausting, selfish though that sounds.<br>
<br>
The Passion is in some ways, the same thing. It breaks through the protective veneer that is probably necessary to get on with life. That is valuable, but I couldn't watch it every week. I would have to become facetious just to survive it.<br>
<br>
Thank you Nathan and Valamber et al. I haven't been this interested in a string since finding out about Roman shield shapes.<br>
<br>
Conn <p></p><i></i>
