Pila bending at the shank

[Hasdrubal]

So I've been reading opinions on a plethora of subjects through out the Roman Empire, and I'm reading Adrian Goldsworthy's Caesar's the life of a colossus. Adrian Goldsworthy states that the Pila bending at the metal shank was just a myth but didn't give any references. 

I've always thought reading the original text like Caesar's Bello Gallico that the shank did bend which he talks about in his first book, and I quote " The Gauls were greatly encumbered for the fight because several of their shields would be pierced and fastened together by a single javelin-cast; and as the iron became bent, they could not pluck it forth, nor fight handily with the left arm being encumbered."

I tried searching on here on Pila, or Pilum but I didn't see anything about the shank discussion. Anyways, I figured Adrian Goldsworthy a scholar on the Western Roman empire. Any references as to where he received his information on would be nice. 

Kind Regards

[Flavivs Aetivs]

It is a myth, the entire point of the Pilum (pun not intended) was to penetrate the shield, hence the pyramidal point with the thin metal shaft. The punctured hole would be larger than the shaft allowing it to go entirely through the shield, allowing it to injure, maim, or kill the person behind the shield.

They just happened to bend sometimes, or were ritually bent before being cast into bogs in religious ceremonies, but otherwise they weren't supposed to.

[Hasdrubal]

It is a myth, the entire point of the Pilum (pun not intended) was to penetrate the shield, hence the pyramidal point with the thin metal shaft. The punctured hole would be larger than the shaft allowing it to go entirely through the shield, allowing it to injure, maim, or kill the person behind the shield.

They just happened to bend sometimes, or were ritually bent before being cast into bogs in religious ceremonies, but otherwise they weren't supposed to.

I knew that much. I have one myself, but I remember reading as I've stated above from Caesar's commentaries, and I remember reading it in another historian's book saying the same thing, but I can't find it. I've heard other historians mention the same thing that it bent at the shank as well after penetration. I know the long shank was meant to pierce through the shield and was long enough to hit the person as the shank was 2 ft in length. Adrian Goldsworthy was just the first person I've heard this from, as most people think that it bent.  

Well the more you know. (Makes a rainbow with his hands) lol

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I mean, maybe at some point someone tried to design a pilum to intentionally bend, but that's totally impractical because it's a lot of extra work and wasted iron which was a highly valuable resource.

[Crispianus]

I think its a difficult question, let me put it this way the same thing is said of the quality of some celtic swords (bending) though I couldnt give you the actual quote it clearly wasn't intentional if it did happen, even though many swords are found in a bent up state and clearly were capable of being twisted all over place.... in any case pilums are no exception...
So I would conclude that it probably wasn't deliberate that pilums bent either but rather the nature of the material and abilitys of the metalworker at the time, I doubt they were deliberatly designed to bend or that anyone tested each and everyone to ensure they did... and thats the crunch isnt it you wouldn't know this was going to happen untill you used it.... so some might bend others probably wouldn't...

[M. Val. Naso]

How can you not pull out something, when it is actually getting thinner?

[Crispianus]

How can you not pull out something, when it is actually getting thinner?

The head is larger then the shank, the only time I've tryed it on a shield an old plywood blank, the  weapon was diifficult to remove as the wood closed up a bit after the head had passed through but still left a hole big enough for the shank to follow easily, the shaft didnt bend but then it was steel....
The shield was rendered useless by the weight hanging of the front and a long length of head protruding from the rear, if anyone had actually been holding the shield it would quite possibly have hit the person....
I wouldn't call this a test by any means but it was interesting non the less...

Still its easy enough to try it out youself as long as you have a decently made pilum..."The Real Wrought Iron Company" and Chris Top can supply wrought iron bar which may not be perfect but is probably close enough if you want an "iron" pilum head to try out...

http://www.realwroughtiron.com/wrought-i...-sections/

.-)

[Hasdrubal]

How can you not pull out something, when it is actually getting thinner?

The head is larger then the shank, the only time I've tryed it on a shield an old plywood blank, the  weapon was diifficult to remove as the wood closed up a bit after the head had passed through but still left a hole big enough for the shank to follow easily, the shaft didnt bend but then it was steel....
The shield was rendered useless by the weight hanging of the front and a long length of head protruding from the rear, if anyone had actually been holding the shield it would quite possibly have hit the person....
I wouldn't call this a test by any means but it was interesting non the less...

Still its easy enough to try it out youself as long as you have a decently made pilum..."The Real Wrought Iron Company" and Chris Top can supply wrought iron bar which may not be perfect but is probably close enough if you want an "iron" pilum head to try out...

http://www.realwroughtiron.com/wrought-i...-sections/

.-)

I have the Deepeeka brand Pilum. I've thought about purchasing a tester. I love people like you who are interested in the equipment and seeing how it actually works, and actually testing it. I truly do love this place. Thanks to everyone, and the people who forwarded me information on this. This place is truly an inspiration to my mind.

[Bryan]

I have Peter Connolly's journal article about this subject. Private message me your email address and I'll send it to you.

[Alexandr K]

Hello,

As far as I know there is no passage in our sources claiming that Roman pila were designed to bend on impact.

However, there are several references about bending of Roman javelins and about pila.

1) Polybios (VI. 22) writes that javelins of velites were intentionally designed to bend. But here, of course, we are talking about different kind of weapon.
2) Caesar (BG I. 25) writes that in the battle against Helvetii pila penetrated several enemy shields and then bent, and subsequently it wasn't possible to remove the pilum from the shield.
3) Plutarch (Marius 25) claims that Marius replaced one of the iron rivets on pilum with a wooden one, so that the wooden rivet would break on impact and the pilum would bend.
4) Appian (Kelt. 1) writes that except for the point Roman pila were made from soft steel.
5) Also Arrian (Ektaxis 17) writes that Roman pila were from soft steel and they bent.


Metallographic analysis of pila from Smihel showed that they really were made from soft steel, only the point, could be harder (thus confirming Appian's account). At the same time, however, it showed, that hardness of steel of the pila was very similar to that of swords found with them, which certainly weren't designed to bend. Also some arrowheads were made the same way (hard point and the rest soft). (Kmetič, D., Horvat, J. & Vodopivec, F., 2004. Metallographic examinations of the Roman Republican weapons from the hoard from Grad near Šmihel. Arheološki vestnik, 55, 291-312.)


Peter Connolly made some tests with reconstructed javelins. They showed that Roman pila only rarely bent and only slightly. It is interesting that reconstructions of javelins of velites (hastae velitaris) actually always bent. (Connolly, P., 2005. The pilum from Marius to Nero. A reconsideration of its development and function. Exercitus, 3.5, 103-112 ; Connolly, P., 2000. The reconstruction and use of Roman weaponry in the second century BC. Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies, 11, 43-46.)


So generally it seems, that Roman pila really were at least sometimes made from soft steel and sometimes bent, but very probably this wasn't on purpose.

Greetings,
Alexandr

[Robert Vermaat]

5) Also Arrian (Ektaxis 17) writes that Roman pila were from soft steel and they bent.

Arrian does not write that. 

Ektaxis kata Alanoon, Acies 17:
hoi deuterostatai de kai hoi tès tritès kai tetartès taxeoos eis akontismon probeblèsthoon tous kontous hopou tychoien, kai hippous troosontes kai hippotèn katakanountes kai thyreooi kataphraktooi thooraki empagentos tou kontou kai dia malakotèta tou sidèrou epikamphthentos archeion ton anabatèn poièsontes. Hai de ephexès taxeis toon lonchophoroon estoosan.
Those standing in second, third and fourth rank of the formation must hold their spears ready for thrusting if possible, wounding the horses and killing the horsemen and put the rider out of action. The impact of the spear will make the flexible iron point stuck in their shield and body armour and the weight will make it impossible for him to remount. The following ranks should be of the javelineers.

The word used (kontos) is by no means a given synonym for 'pilum'.  there's been a circulat reasoning going on: Arrian writing about a bending spear has led translators to believe that [therefore]  Arrian used the word kontos for a pilum. There are a lot of problems with a straighforward translation, among others that the Alan cavalry did not have any shields and that a pilum supposedly did not have a soft point, to name some. But nowhere is mentioned that Roman pila were made from soft steel.

[Alexandr K]

Hi Robert,

Thank you for pointing this out and correcting my mistake. I agree. So with regard to Arrian, we do not have Roman pila made from soft steel, but some Roman spears (of unknown type) made from soft steel.

Kind regards,
Alexandr

[Flavivs Aetivs]

"The Real Wrought Iron Company" and Chris Top can supply wrought iron bar which may not be perfect but is probably close enough if you want an "iron" pilum head to try out...

Which is nothing like what the Romans used. Modern steel isn't either, but the Romans used steel in the range of what is ideal for swords (and always has been) which is like 50-60 or 10-45 or something.

[Crispianus]

"The Real Wrought Iron Company" and Chris Top can supply wrought iron bar which may not be perfect but is probably close enough if you want an "iron" pilum head to try out...

Which is nothing like what the Romans used. Modern steel isn't either, but the Romans used steel in the range of what is ideal for swords (and always has been) which is like 50-60 or 10-45 or something.

A bold statement... Ancient iron varies wildly in quality and composition as does sword construction, however what you get with Wrought iron in this case is mostly soft iron not mild steel, before you reject it offhand you should buy some and test it, it is quite different from modern materials... I would also suggest in conjuction using charcoal as a fuel for forgework...

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Metallurgical analysis from the same papers Alexandr K posted above shows Roman armor and weapons were almost completely consistently made with medium to high carbon steel from roughly the 2nd century BC onwards.