Number of legions at Zama

[Anonymous]

I have a number of books on this battle but there seems to be some disagreement about how many legions participated. Some state that Scipio had three legions and others say two. Is there recent research that clarifies this? The total number of Roman and Allied (excluding Numidan) cavalry would seem to indicate that there were two legions plus the Allied wings. if there were three legions and three Allied wings the cavalry proportion would seem to be low. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Hello JeffF,<br>
<br>
I have commonly read two legions myself. Assuming that the Roman foot was maybe around 15 to 20 thousand, it would seem likely that of these numbers, two were legions with the allied contingents taking up the rest of the numbers. <br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

I got the same thing also from A. Goldsworthy's "Roman Warfare". I think Peddie mentions something of it also, but my neighbhour has my book "Making of the Roman Army", so I wasn't able to check. <p>"Only Trajan could go to Dacia."<BR>
<BR>
Magnus/Matt<BR>
Optio<BR>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" </p><i></i>

[Catiline]

I believe Scipio was allowed to raise 7000 volunteers as well as the two legions he had from Sicily, which may account for the discrepancy. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Not sure on the number of Legions, I might be able to add a bit.<br>
<br>
I think there were technically 4 legions, 2 Roman and 2 Allied.<br>
<br>
The core of Scipio's forces were made of what was left from the two Legions that were trounced at Caenne. They lost a little more than 50% of their strength, were disgraced and were sort of bannished to Sicily. It was from them that Scipio found a readily available force for invasion...those men wanted to redeam themselves.<br>
<br>
Scipio also recruited from Sicily, and performed a rather brilliant trick to bolster his cavalry. He asked for volunteers from among the Sicilian nobles to come fully equipped with horse and kit. They were too proud not to come, but the kids from the noble families that came were scared to death at the idea of invading Africa. So, Scipio said he'd let them off the hook...providing they allow a commoner to take their equipment and horse and be the cavalryman in their place.<br>
<br>
This little trick, combined with a diplomatic triumph which secured Massinesa's Numidian cavalry under Scipio gave him the edge in the mounted battle, which was essential for the success of Zama. <p></p><i></i>

[Guest]

Salve,<br>
<br>
In republican times a <i> legio</i>, a unit of Roman citizen soldiers, would have had an <i> ala sociorum</i>, a unit composed of allies, of roughly the same size attached. The altter units did not constitute a legion themselves. A force of about 15.000 men as Scipio had, would thus probably consist of two legions and two <i> alae</i>.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Sander van Dorst <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

If I remember correctly, Scipio had the two legions of Cannae(5th and 6th) refilled to full strength and beyond, like around 6500 men in each. If this should be the case then Scipio's army must have been quite larger than 15,000 foot. <p></p><i></i>

[StrategyM]

Only if you assume that he had not suffered any casaulties in the course of 1 1/2 years of hard campaigning - including siege operations against Utica, a pitched battle, a naval battle, the burning of the enemy camps at Castra Cornelia and a legion-strength flying column operation into Numidia. <p>Strategy<br>
Designer/Developer<br>
Imperium - Rise of Rome</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/ustrategym.showPublicProfile?language=EN>StrategyM</A> at: 8/13/02 3:44:55 pm<br></i>

[Anonymous]

Nor would I assume that he lost over 5,000 men in a few minor engagments. Besides, I have read sources putting the amounts more around 20,000 + infantry at Zama. <p></p><i></i>

[StrategyM]

Couple of comments:<br>
1. I would hardly call the pitched battle in the Great Plains a "minor engagement".<br>
2. You seem to forget that - almost regardless of the historical period or army - losses in day to day operations and minor engagements tend to exceed the losses in pitched battles by far.<br>
<br>
In any case, you can check the Scipio biography on the www.fenrir.dk website (under history) for my conclusions on the campaign.<br>
<br>
Appian (the only author to give numbers) states 23,000 infantry and 1,500 cavalry + Massinissa's 4,000 Numidians. This fits very nicely with 2 overstrength legions + allies. <p>Strategy<br>
Designer/Developer<br>
Imperium - Rise of Rome</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/ustrategym.showPublicProfile?language=EN>StrategyM</A> at: 8/16/02 2:05:29 pm<br></i>

[Anonymous]

That would have been one helluva battle to see. Too bad (so far) no movies will be made on any of the great Roman Generals in the near future. (And no, the Vin Diesal "Alexander" movie doesn't have my hopes very high...lol). <p>"Only Trajan could go to Dacia."<BR>
<BR>
Magnus/Matt<BR>
Optio<BR>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" </p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

The point was just that Scipio must have had considerably more than 15,000 foot at Zama, based on the amount of troops he set out with and the numbers we have of his force at Zama. I never said that he didn't have any losses in the earlier campaigns, but it is very unlikey that they were high enough to bring down his infantry to 15,000, this would assume that he had a rather high casualty rate. If 23,000 infantry fits nicely with 2 overstrenghted legions and ally contingents at Zama, then wouldn't this mean that his losses were minimal in his earlier campaigns to still have 23,000 initial infantry? Of course there is always the case that he could have had the ranks refilled at times, this I am not sure about. <p></p><i></i>

[StrategyM]

The original force he brought with him would probably have amounted to about 15,000 - this tallies with the amount of transport he used which is about the same number as Regulus used to carry ca. 15,000 troops during the first war.<br>
<br>
Of course, people tend to forget that the Romans could easily (and probably did) ship in reinforcements. So Scipio would no doubt have shipped across the rest of his troops at the first opportunity.<br>
<br>
Minimal losses: if we are to believe the massively overstrength legions that he is credited with, Scipio may have had around 25,000 infantry at the start of the campaign in Sicily and perhaps 1800-2400 cavalry (full legion complement). The cavalry had been very active, so the 1500 at Zama probably represents rather heavy losses (15-35%). I wouldn't consider those minimal losses.<br>
<br>
But otherwise, we are in agreement. <p>Strategy<br>
Designer/Developer<br>
Imperium - Rise of Rome</p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

It would be heavy losses if we assume that he had 15,000 foot at Zama. But why is this the case? Appian states he had 23,000 foot and I am assuming this isn't including the 6000 Numundian infantry. We can also deduce that he must have had more than 15,000 foot at Zama because of his initial force, going with 15,000 and then the remainder catching up with him totaled around 25,000. As you point out, this would be around 35 % losses, a totally unacceptable perecentage for the nature of the preceding campaigns of Zama and especially for a general like Scipio. <p></p><i></i>

[StrategyM]

I haven't stated anywhere that Scipio had 15,000 at Zama.<br>
<br>
The 6000 "Numidians" infantry that you reference were not Numidians - they were <b> Romans</b> - part of the troops under Gaius Laelius that supported Massinissa.<br>
<br>
As already stated (once, twice, thrice ), check the webpage for my numbers. If you have anything to argue against them, then I'll be more than happy to discuss (though preferably on the history forum at fenrir.dk).<br>
<p>Strategy<br>
Designer/Developer<br>
Imperium - Rise of Rome</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/ustrategym.showPublicProfile?language=EN>StrategyM</A> at: 8/18/02 11:34:57 am<br></i>