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05-04-2004, 01:32 PM

Hi everyone! I'm a new recruit - I posted on the other board, but thought I'd say hello here as well before launching into my question... 
 
I've read "The Roman Soldier" by G.R. Watson, and in it (as well as on the internet), I've seen many references to commissioned v. non-commissioned officers, and that commissioned officers might serve for a shorter term, in specific units, and so forth. 
 
But all I can find are references - can anyone explain to me how the commissions worked or suggest a source for me to look into? 
 
All my appreciation in advance!! 
 
Carina

JRSCline · 05-04-2004, 02:41 PM

Well, first of all, you have to jettison any preconceptions about commissioned versus noncommissioned officers; these terms are modern constructions and really can't be made to fit the Roman rank model. Forget them. 
 
Broadly (very broadly), here's a start at an answer, for the army of the Imperial period: 
 
A well-educated, literate enlistee in the legions (and therefore a citizen) could hope for advancement up to the highest earned (not bought or politically-appointed) ranks of the Roman military: the primipilares, of whom there was only one (the primus pilus) per legion. 
 
(It was possible for a wealthy man to buy himself into a higher position on the rank structure, even into the centurionate -- which was normally filled by men promoted, presumably meritoriously, from the junior ranks. However, that's a tangent I will leave to the tender mercies of others with their reference libraries at hand. I am writing dangerously off the cuff!) 
 
Advancement to the ranks of the primipilate bestowed equestrian status upon the man; he was now eligible, assuming good political connections and patronage, for political appointment to those positions filled by men of the commercial class, the equestrian order. (Horses have nothing to do with all this, by the way.) 
 
Commands for men of equestrian status principally included praefectures of auxiliary cohorts (typically composed of several hundred non-citizen troops). Additionally, most of the military tribunes per legion (there were several), the tribuni angusticlavi, were appointed from the equestrian class. 
 
Sons of those belonging to the senatorial order would begin their military (and often political) careers as political appointees to the military tribunate as well. One of the tribune posts in each legion (the tribunus laticlavus) was filled in this way. 
 
The emperor appointed legates to represent him and his imperium (command) in each legion. These legati Augusti were appointed commanders responsible for the legion's performance, presumably assisted in the day-to-day management of legion operations and training by the primus pilus, as well as the praefectus castrorum, an equestrian position whose holder was typically an ex-primus pilus. The camp prefect's duties centered on the administration and logistics of the legionary base. 
 
Someone care to take the auxiliary structure, in a nutshell? Anyone want to lay down the ranks leading to the centurionate? Dissect the centurionate itself? 
 
You can make yourself crazy with the Roman rangordnung, as Germans termed it: "rank-order." Try Brian Campbell's The Emperor and the Roman Army for an excellent read. 
 
Hope this is a helpful start -- and if I got anything wrong, I do apologize, this is from my ever-tenuous memory. 
 
Cheers 
Jenny Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jrscline>JRSCline</A> at: 5/5/04 7:35 am

Matthew Amt · 05-04-2004, 03:35 PM

Avete! 
Like Jenny said, our concepts of "commissioned" versus "non-commissioned" don't work across the board. Just a few clarifications or corrections that I'll add. Much of this is laid out on the Legio XX page on Organization and Officers, 
 
www.larp.com/legioxx/orgoff.html 
 
Men in the ranks, serving their 20 to 25 years, could rise through immunis status (various specialist and clerical posts) to pay-and-a-half (tessararius, musicians, etc.), then double-pay (signifer and optio, as I recall). The optio is second-in-command of a century. Then comes the big jump to centurion. At a basic level he's a cross between a company first sergeant and a captain, commanding c. 80 men. But centurions have their own hierarchy, the 6 in a cohort having a strict pecking order, and the cohorts in a legion having status in numerical order (first cohort being the most prestigious). Since the senior centurion in a cohort could command that whole cohort, not to mention the primus pilus and praefectus castrorum up near the top of the rank structure, you could say that centurions held every rank from captain to lieutenant colonel. 
 
We really don't know how they were promoted up through the centurionate. We do know that men identified themselves and their equipment by the name of their centurion--so did a centurion take his troops with him when he got promoted from one cohort to another? 
 
As Jenny says, men of the equestrian order could get direct appointments into the centurionate. I don't know how long they served, but it's possible that they were much more likely to be "fast-tracked" along the promotion schedule, climbing up to the highest posts over the heads of the career men who had climbed from the ranks. It's all in one's connections, you see, and men of higher social status have better connections. 
 
Above the centurions in a legion were 5 equestrian tribunes (tribuni angusticlavi). Most of these fellows had already served as independent commanders of auxiliary cohorts. It used to be said (without much backing) that they were just staff officers, but it is far more likely that each commanded 2 cohorts. (They did okay with 500 Germans who would just as soon eat them, but in a legion full of citizens they can only handle paperwork?) Under Claudius, the usual progression was 3 or 4 years each as an auxiliary prefect, then legionary tribune, and finally auxiliary cavalry commander. 
 
Above these tribunes was one Senatorial tribune (tribunus laticlavus). He was actually younger than the others but outranked them. Probably his first time away from home, and if he survives this for a couple years he'll go back to a civil career in Rome, working the usual posts and offices as he enters the Senate and eventually (hopefully) becomes consul. 
 
Next up is the camp prefect, a former primus pilus who will hold this post for one year, then retire in great glory. 
 
On top is the legatus, a senator who is trusted by the Emperor to command a legion. Ten years earlier he probably served as a senatorial tribune, and now he (hopefully) knows a lot more. 
 
Back to the original question, you could fairly call the tribunes and legate "commissioned" officers, and you could call the guys below centurion "non-commissioned". But in between are the centurions, who really form the core of the officer cadre, and can't really be classified either way. Pretty big gray area! 
 
 
Vale, 
 
Matthew/Quintus, Leg.XX

05-04-2004, 08:38 PM

Thank you both very much!! 
 
Jenny - whatever else your memory might or might not be, "tenuous" is certainly not it. Your depth of knowledge on the topic is very impressive - did you study Roman military history formally, or is this the accumulation of personal study? 
 
Matthew - thanks for the help as well - both your explanation and the link you provided were very useful! I'm assuming you do some re-enacting. Do you know of anyone who does it in the Midwest? Near Indianapolis (or within 2 hours of it?) I'd love to attend one if possible. 
 
Thanks again to both of you.... 
 
Carina

05-05-2004, 12:23 AM

Eureka! IÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢ve got it: That in-between category (the centurionate) are the warrant officers of the Roman army! OK, just kidding, I know that all these modern labels are going to be somewhat anachronistic. 
 
The thing is, in trying to explain all of this to ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…â€œnon-scholarsÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚Â

05-05-2004, 01:15 AM

Thanks for the additional insight, Aaron! 
 
I was wondering if any of you knew more or less, how the "commissioning" process works. Was a commissioned soldier sent to a specific "unit"? Could they "bargain down" their length of service? (Assuming they came from the equestrian class?) 
 
Thanks! 
 
Carina

JRSCline · 05-05-2004, 05:56 AM

Thanks, Matt, Aaron. But we've got to get Carina "weaned" off the commissioned/NCO model of rank structure. It's totally anachronistic for the Roman army. You just can't fit Roman ranks into the modern model without resort to hybridizations that obscure rather than illuminate the ancient analogue: e.g. "centurion = company commander/first sergeant" -- what IS that? A poor substitute likely to confuse rather than assist laymen. Far preferably more accurate is just tossing out the comparisons and accepting the Roman structure as unique, defying modern analogy. IMO. 
 
Carina, we really should first lay out the ascending rank structure that a literate citizen legionary enlistee could aspire to. I think this is what you're after, not a one-over-the-world look at all the levels of command and responsibility, right? I think I may have confused things by introducing the different options available to wealthy men of the higher socio-political orders (the equestrian/commercial and senatorial/aristocratic classes). 
 
Matt, sounds like you have books at hand. (Thanks for the catch on the tribuni, BTW! ) Could you make us a start with a list of junior legionary ranks through the centurionate, with a brief description of each rank's responsibilities? 
 
Jenny

05-05-2004, 12:22 PM

Et Voila, Jenny - That's *exactly* what I was trying to express. Forgive my continued use of the incorrect terms - they were used throughout Watson's "The Roman Soldier" and it kind of stuck. (Bad Carina! ) 
 
So I guess my question really is: What did the career of a literate, wealthy citizen of say, the equestrian class, look like? Since they probably didn't start out as a miles, what rank could they expect to begin at? What could they aspire to? Did they serve as long as their non-equestrian counterparts? 
 
Carina 
 
P.S. Can I just mention that you guys ROCK???

JRSCline · 05-05-2004, 12:39 PM

Thanks, Carina! 
 
Okay, so we understand what you want -- you don't want to know about a legionary's career. You want to know about how the son of a wealthy equestrian family would enter the Roman military, and what ranks he might start with? 
 
Typical Roman citizens would start with one set of rather lowly options for military service. Equestrians, the lower half of the Roman oligarchy, would start with a different set of military possibilities. And the sons of the senatorial order (the upper half of Rome's oligarchy) would have another set of options. Basically, there are these three career tracks, based on wealth and social status. 
 
So, just to be clear, it's the second (equestrian) track you're interested in? 
 
Jenny Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jrscline>JRSCline</A> at: 5/5/04 2:43 pm

05-05-2004, 01:46 PM

Yes, thanks - I'd be very interested in hearing more about the equestrian track. 
 
On a side note, I found an article in the Journal of Roman Studies (I love being a grad student - access to all sorts of cool things through the university) that might help, but I'll have to read all 34 pages of it later - I'm finishing up my thesis which has to be turned in by Friday. 
 
In case anyone is curious, the article is: P.A. Brunt, "Princeps & Equites", 73 Journal of Roman Studies 42 (1983). 
 
Carina

Los456 · 05-05-2004, 06:02 PM

Let me take another stab at this Centurion progression in a little bit more plain english for a military mind. The centurions ARE the company commanders, though they are all for the most part promoted through the ranks based on performance and merit, in combat and otherwise. The reason people say they are like First Sergeants is that they are for the most part promoted through the ranks, and thus have a soldiers experience and sensibilty and plain spokeness, combined with a company commander's responsibility leadership and grasp of fighting a century. 
 
The Optio is the century's combination first sergeant and executive officer. He is the combination adminstrative officer, (duty rosters, retirement funds etc) supply officer and second in command who steps up to century command when the Centurion goes down or has to otherwise leave the century. Once the dust settles he MAY become the permanent Centurion or may step down to Optio again as another Centurion is put in place or may become Centurion transfereed to a lesser century in the pecking order as a more experienced centurion is placed in (I.e. he's in the first cohort). 
 
As someone else mentioned once you are a Centurion you start in the lowest centurion spot and work your way up until you are the centurion in the first century of the first cohort. Centurions can comand cohorts, multiple centuries/task forces etc based on the needs of the situation.The senior or "top" Centurion in the Legion is the Primus Pilus or "first spear" and gets the added distinction of being the one Centurion that normally joins the tribunes and legate in "O" groups or planning sessions, presumably because he is the most experienced soldier in the legion. BTW there were one or more cases where ex-Centurions became legion commanders (Legates). 
 
Of course various exceptions to the process mean YMMV. But what's nice about the whole structure is that a regular Joe from nowhere'sville could embark upon a legionary career and through a combination of skill, courage, dedication, and luck work his way up the ranks to the highest rank. 
 
Los

05-05-2004, 06:22 PM

I've found it odd that even though it seems that the cohort never seems to get an officer specifically to command it. I guess the consensus seems to be that it was commanded by its senior centurion, but that seems hardly an ideal arrangement to me. Matthew's idea that the tribunes commanded 2 cohorts is interesting, but it seems like a recipe for stretching an officer too thin to me. Any thoughts, you military officers out there, on what it would be like to be simultaneously in command of 2 battalions or, perhaps (like a senior centurion) simultaneously be in command of a company and its battalion? It seems to me like the shortcomings of these sorts of arrangements would cause the fairly pragmatic Romans to eventually come up with some sort of "legionary prefect" type of position to command each cohort.

Vincula · 05-05-2004, 08:50 PM

Picked up the wrong end of the vitis there, AG. 
I think Matthew means that the tribune commanded 2 cohorts in succession -- in fact, he normally commanded a cavalry regiment in between times, and maybe another one at the end.

05-05-2004, 11:08 PM

Well... I'm not sure that I did. I mean, hey, I fully admit to being an amateur at this stuff, so feel free to (figuratively) beat me with whichever end of the vitis is handy if I ask a dumb question or make a dumb comment. I really want to learn from those who've had more time to study this stuff... but back to the issue at hand... 
 
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I'm counting 10 cohorts and 5 (equestrian) tribunes... so even if all 5 commanded cohorts the problem I mentioned (or at least one of the two problems I mentioned) seems to me to still remain for half of the cohorts. But maybe I'm missing something, here... 
 
AG

Jeroen Pelgrom · 05-06-2004, 07:33 AM

iÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´m not certain if there is any evidence of a tribune commanding 2 cohorts or any other special commander for this. A tribune could on the other hand command a vexillation of, for example 2 cohorts. Professionals built the Titanic, amateurs built the ark 
 
 
 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=pelgr003>pelgr003</A> at: 5/6/04 9:34 am

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