About Ulfhednar (continued)

[caiusbeerquitius]

This is a continuation of the posts in this thread:
link from old RAT

@ Redwald / Paul:

Really? And the ss used triskelles? Surely the form of the swastika is very different? Perhaps you can show us an ss flag that looks similar?

Schalburg-Korps flag, SS

Together with the general setting of the flag I mentioned before, i am able to see a lot of parallels. If you don´t, let´s agree to disagree.

Not so, I have just checked this by looking at the 34 four members on the website -- only two have anything vaguely like a swastika, one of the Polish members has a yellow sun wheel on his red shield and an English member has a continuous swastika type pattern on his tunic edging. This is of the type often seen on Greek friezes.
In other pictures on the site - Arian does have a frieze on his horse blanket and there are one or two swastika type designs on shields -- none of these are of the type used by the nazis.

You miss my point entirely. If you read again what I wrote: I summed up briefly what the discussion in Germany was about and what happened. Then a discussion started, where i mand up my point: IMO it is irresponsible and quite questionable to sport the swastika on equipment shown in public at a public official event payed for by the tax payers. I don´t mind if someone has a gear full of swastikas if it makes him / her happy. But not on such an event. Not in public. At least, not in Germany. And especially not, if someone from the group (member or not, since this is not recognizeable to the audfience) sports a criminal tatto and shows it in public.

As for the frequency of the appearance of the symbol in ancient times -- well you are entitled to your opinion, however, you must accept that others may have different ideas to you.

Well, IMO the findings don´t support such an amount of swastikas and swastika-like symbols for that period. If it does in your opinion, fine, but you should know and should / must have known that it is provoking people, and thus you should be able to live with the consequences such a provoking behaviour brings along. e.g. uncomfortable questions.

I am not sure why you seem to be going out of your way to try and build a case against Ulfhednar, however, that, too is your privilege. However the members of Ulfhednar are my friends and the implications that you seem to be making sadden me

That was initially not my intention, the discussion just came along. As I just said above, you should be able to bear this, since the swastikas provoke. It is not so much about Ulfhednar on my side, but generally about the use of swastikas in reenactment. The Ulfhednar are an actual example.

As I wrote above:

Exactly, as I commented on Susanna´s posting. This is something I do not like. IMO the authorities are there to handle such things. A witch-hunt does not help at all, contrary, it makes all worse, since it throws a bad light on the witch hunters as well as on the "witches". All in all the whole Living History community takes damage.
However, it still should be allowed to talk about all this, and to have an opinion about this.

Frankly, I find it good that you take position here and that you are able to / try to clarify things. Information can mainly be gained here from the U.-website and the written reports, and thus is, of course restricted /possibly biased / incomplete.

@ Tjordulf:

Yes maybe Ulfhednars flag does resemble an SS one, but isn't it equally logical that this works the other way round also, that the SS flag is meant to echo an earlier Germanic sense of warrior ethic, albiet a misguided one.

hock: Circular reasoning? Based on what?

By trying to eradicate all uses of any historical symbols that have been " stolen" by extremists, that only serves to highlight its power in its later perverted form. The Swastika, as most of you should know has been used by just about every major ancient civilisation throughout history, ie Roman, Egyptian, Hindu, North American indian and in the context of this thread Northern European Germanic tribes. So, by using it in its original and authentic context, it serves to (re) educate people of the meaning of this symbol and takes away the power from those that would continue to misuse it. Putting ones head under the pillow doesn't make the monster go away! Sometimes we have to face up to fear and hate, but denial and silencing is not the way to do it.

So what you say is: It is more important to retrieve the stolen symbol than to respect the dead / living people who regard the symbol as the symbol of one of the biggest atrocities in history? hock:

A swastika worn on a migration period brooch whilst at a re-enactment of the migration period, is So not the same thing as wearing a swastika on a red armband at a holocaust memorial service. Obviously the key thing here is intent, and whilst Ulfhednar are in effect being accused of being neo nazi's, albeit covertly, I feel this is wholly unjust and inaccurate. The real danger here is from the ones who don't hide their extreme beliefs, or dress it up in re-enactment, if one has a message, why make it ambiguous. The Overt neo nazi's are the ones who should be targeted for their use of the swastika, because of the hatred that is implicit with the context of their use of it. Teach history, enjoy learning history, but leave modern Politics and Religion out of it.

All said above. What the heck is so important abbout the symbol? There are enough other nice ones.

@ Ceawlin:
Welcome to the board!

Christian, I was interested to find out you know my employment status. Sadly this is not the case and I have to work damn hard (as a gardener if you are interested) to support my family and my hobby.

However, this seems to be the case for a large part of the Germans in your group. I mean the German members of Ulfhednar.
If this is not the case, I was misinformed.

Do you mean all re-enactors Christian? If so I agree, let's have a laugh at ourselves.

Exactly. "individualists"

Well Christian, as yet we have not had any feedback on RAT from Polish French or German members, sinister to you no doubt, but as I have actually gone out and met many of these people, I can tell you that not many of them can speak English. Those that can are infinetely better in my native tongue than I am in theirs, but still, their spoken and written English is not as polished as yours, and thus not up to debating in a mainly English forum. There is also the possibility that many feel they have better things to do.

Nah, I actually meant the German part of the group, especially the leader, and I meant: In German.

Reference the display of swastikas, Redwald and Tjordulf seem to have covered this well, but I will have my say. As Roman re-enactors many of you will know the rather old book by Peteson "The Roman Legions in Colour Photographs". I'm not sure how well this has aged but on page 36 a member of Milites Litoris Saxoni sports a tunic based on the Piazza Armerina mosaic, minus the swastika to "...avoid wearisome arguement with ill informed members of the public." This always struck me as rather a shame, and when it boils down to it it is the distortion of history to suit current idealogy. (Hmmm, what next? Book burning?)

Clearly and understandably the swastika can upset people, but I would like to think most of them are intelligent enough to distinguish between a swastika on say, an Anglo-Saxon spearhead (Dover Buckland Grave 93) and a nazi swastika. Unfortunately it is the " ill-informed" (or rather well informed but bloody minded) individuals that deliberatley draw no difference between the two.

All said above. "provocation and it´s consequences". See also this thread:

link from old RAT

So to sum up it would be nice if many of the accusers of Ulfhednar would actually come and meet us and share a glass, before making statements publicly. It appears to me that because a high percentage (not all) of Ulfhednar members are long haired and bearded individuals, who like loud music and leather jackets (myself included) as well as superb re-enactment kit, it makes them an easy target for repectfully dressed establishment witch hunters and inquisitors.

I´m in for that, if there should open up a possibility somewhere sometime. However, as I said above, It was not my intent to "accuse" as such, although I gather that it may look like that to you. It´s just that I am a bit allergic to too many swastikas - a large part of my family suffered quite a bit from the Nazis - My Great-Grandfather was a founding member of the SPD. And before Angus jumps in on this: NO, I am not a social democrat or a supporter of them. :wink:

[Redwald]

Christian,

By the way, within Ulfhednar, most members do not use it on their clothes.

Maybe, but if you look on the pictures on the U. homepage you will see that it is hard to find a pic without at least one of them somewhere on it.

I don't see how I 'missed your point entirely', the above is what you said.
And we must disagree on the resemblance of the flags - the example that you show is not like the Ulfhednar flag - the predominant colour is red - the Ulfhednar flag is black and the symbolism is different. I really don't know why you show the Danish, Schalburg Korps flag at all. My original point still stands - the Ulfhednar flag is based on Roman prototypes.
However, I do recognise and have already stated that sensitivities regarding the swastika are comparatively greater in Germany than in England and that caution is necessary. However, most of the swastika forms used by Ulfhednar --(in fact all )-- are not the same types as the nazis used.

So what you say is: It is more important to retrieve the stolen symbol than to respect the dead / living people who regard the symbol as the symbol of one of the biggest atrocities in history?

We had a similar situation in England where for a while the St George's flag was associated with fascists -- it isn't now because ordinary English people started using it. I know that this isn't quite the same as the swastika -- I am certainly not suggesting that ordinary Germans start waving it about -- but Europeans from the past- and others -- certainly did use it and it has a place in reenactment. I also think that you will find it was quite prolific in the 4th to 7th centuries.
Anyway, perhaps we can take up my colleague's suggestion and at some future event we can meet, share a glass and speak to each other and you can meet some of our German's friends and discuss with them your concerns.

Paul

[Robert Vermaat]

About the swastika symbol, I think we reenactor can use it, with with care when meeting the public. Just to be on the safe side, also because the public is not just meeting us, but visiting the grounds of an organisation that hires us. Just be tactful.

About the symbol and the use, I find it horrifying when museums would remove ancient items from their visible collection. Can you see them closing the Pylos ruins just in case the swatikas there could offend someone? Note: Greece suffered from the Nazi occupation, but to my knowledge removing ancient Greeek swatika symbols was never called for. We can also become oversensitive.

About retrieving symbols or excluding them as representing the nazi period. Well, as I said above, tread with care and tact is the best way, but let's not take it too far. I also read about flag colours reminding of nazi flags - are we banning colour schemes now as well? hock:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Actually, along the colour scheme line of things.....

I had always been a fan of red, and then noticed how well it contrasted with white and black, when I was a child. I used to draw a lot.
It wasn't until I did a school project on the second world war that I realised the coincidence of my favourite colour scheme and that of the Nazi banners......I guess that marks me as well? :?

[caiusbeerquitius]

@ Redwald / Paul:

You missed it, because this is what I am mainly concerned with:

IMO it is irresponsible and quite questionable to sport the swastika on equipment shown in public at a public official event payed for by the tax payers.

... in Germany.

The amount of swastikas in your group is disputable, the arrangement of colours and symbols on the flag, etc. But that does not really change a lot about that basic argument of mine.
Even if the flag was just designed this way unintentionally, it appears to many people in Germany like loaned from one of the flags I mentioned above, and that as such is enough to stir emotions and to provoke. To me and several people I know this particular flag looks like it were designed in such a way.
I know no Roman prototype with a black background and a large swastika at the centre and four triskeles around it in each corner. Maybe you can share your knowledge about such a Roman vexillum with us, since this would be quite interesting. So far it looks like a mix of SS and Wehrmacht flags, with the colours exchanged from here to there.

I also think that you will find it was quite prolific in the 4th to 7th centuries.

Not as far as prolific as in the Roman 3rd century AD, I´d say. For the period you describe I find much more crosses / christian symbolism. Skimming through excavation reports and catalogues like "Die Alamannen", or the Berlin collection published in "Merowingerzeit" I must say that it appears to me to be a rather rarely used decoration device, actually. The only objects which more often sport a swastika are "Zierscheiben" and "Riemenverteiler". That´s about it. ( Of all the items in "Merowingerzeit" only four have a swastika, three of which are "Zierscheiben" e.g. ) Same for the south German grave fields. Further, professional quantitative analysis might be quite interesting, here.

About the symbol and the use, I find it horrifying when museums would remove ancient items from their visible collection. Can you see them closing the Pylos ruins just in case the swatikas there could offend someone? Note: Greece suffered from the Nazi occupation, but to my knowledge removing ancient Greeek swatika symbols was never called for. We can also become oversensitive.

Horrible indeed. But most impropable. Why should they do that?

I guess that marks me as well?

Yes, Byron. Of course. How could you?

[Jona Lendering]

We can also become oversensitive.

Yes. I fully agree.

[Ingvar Sigurdson]

Hi All,

This is my first post on this forum so please forgive me in advance the following causes offence, it is not my intention.

First let me see that I have long admired Ulfhednar and their commitment to their chosen period of Living History. I have also shared mead with them and can honestly say that during conversation with them no right wing or neo-nazi sympathies where uttered.

Now I am not too familiar with the re-enactment scene in Germany, so please feel free to correct me if I myself make assumptions.

Looking at other sources and forums on the Internet it seems to me that there a number of issues and vested interests being played out in that scene at that moment, which unfortunately Ulfhednar have become the center of attention.

The main issue appears to be concerns, even conspiracy theories :roll: , of radical right wing ideology into the re-enactment scene, heathen/pagan scene, pagan metal music scene, medieval markets/fairs and even the poor old Goth Scene in Germany.

To an outsider this appears quite ludicrous, but yet no doubt given a wider enough brush we can catch everyone and paint them all with the same tar and make the evidence fit the charge.

Hel, look close enough at the vagaries of social networking sites, the supposed conduit of this supposed neo - nazi conspiracy, then it is probable that all those with a myspace, facebook, bebo site etc can be linked by to a neo-nazi by the three people removed theory. Even you reading this hock:

While we continue to be aware of the sensitivities surrounding its use in recent memory, the danger of the symbol of the swastika likes not in its representation in a re-enactment sense or even a pagan sense, but in heeding those who call for it's continued censorship. To do so creates a vacuum of ignorance and misinformation, these all to readily exploited by the radical Right and Left for their own particular agendas.

Of course never forget the atrocities perpetrated by the Nazi Regime, or come to that the Stalinist State, but is it not time the Germans stop flagellating themselves for the sins of the Grandfathers. Yes it is an uncomfortable question!


There is good sound evidence for the swastika used in decorative elements of textiles in the broader Germanic world, certainly in 6th/7th century Scandinavia).

Ulfhednar use the swastika, have members who are in a pagan metal band, some use camouflaged 'day wear',( so do some anglers, mmm neo nazi fisherman ) some are pagan...,so the assumption made is they must be neo-nazi.

I say shame on those who are continue to pursue Ulfhednar and are willing to make them the sacrificial lamb on the alter of political correctness.

best

Dave

[Redwald]

Hi Christian,
Indeed, a professional quantitative analysis could be useful regarding the amount of swastikas in Germanic artefacts. I am not sure how a survey of the books that you mention can be judged as a representative sample (most of which I have) as by their very nature, the books contain a small selection of items, which may have had to fulfil particular set of criteria in order to be included.
Anyway, we could argue forever over the numbers of swastikas that can be found and the proportion of them that should be used within reenactment and I am sure that we will never agree.
I don't think that this is relevant any more as the point that you are making is much deeper -- you mistrust Ulfhednar -- I don't. This is an argument that could go on forever.
Members of my family fought and died fighting the nazis during the Second World War, yet it seems that you are more threatened by this than I am. Perhaps Dave/Ingvar is right to raise an 'uncomfortable' point.
Let me make this very clear --no-one in Ulfhednar is trying to recreate the Third, or any other Reich! All we want to do is promote historical research, inform ourselves and the public, have companionship with our friends and other reenactors (perhaps you should have come to Marle and joined us) and have some fun.
I think that Robert's most recent post about 'treading with care' is extremely good advice to all of us.

Paul

[Tjordulf]

Christian,

Circular reasoning? Based on what?

Well, based on the fact that it is well known that some of the upper echelons of the SS used some sort of Pseudo-Norse/Germanic Paganism as a means with which to motivate the men under their command. Instilling them with a 'Heroic Warrior Code' served to give them a sense of purpose and a focus for a Moral crusade. This kind of indoctrination has been used by military forces throughout history, stripping a man of his humanity and turning him into a killing machine. Even to this day, groups like the US Marine corps, seek to instill, loyalty, honour, code and national and regimental history in their recruits. The visual aspect of this is apparent in the Nazi context, with the use of historical and religious symbolism and iconography.
This then seems a perfect way to fire up young men with fighting vigour and distract them froms the horrors and suffering they are about to inflict on the world.
No, the swastika symbol itself is not important (in its own right), but the principal is, Of course, no rational, decent human being would wish to offend anyone with this symbol in its Evil tainted Nazi context, but that does not change the fact that if we are to portray history accurately then we have to do it "Warts and all" Yes its an Ugly truth, but Truth never the less.
It is unfortunate that in Germany, there exists still, a profound sensitivity towards this symbol. We in England seem to have gotten over Norwegians invading our monasteries in the 8th C, indeed,even forgiven the Normans for defeating us at Hastings, But remember you said "......biggest atrocities in history" Yes recent history. But in all of history, not necessessarily, What about what the Romans did to the Christians and indeed most of Europe for that matter, atrocity after atrocity, what next ban Christians from wearing the Crucifix, as it signifies the horrific torture and execution of a man, indeed! Infact what about banning Roman re-enactors from wearing the Gladius, how many Celts were brutally slain at the business end of that pointy little weapon. Should we not be offended over their pointless deaths? or is it?(as I suspect ), that death and our sense of bereavement has a shelf life, do I care that my ancestor Olaf was Killed in an argument with Ragnar from the next village 1000 years ago?, no not really, do I care that my grandad was killed in action the day before the war against the Nazi's ended? Yes Damn right I do, but Its still history and it still needs to be explored and told to our children.
Where does it stop?

By remembering, We don't have to hang on to Hate and Fear, but rather remember how we defeated it!

[Tjordulf]

Anyway,
Semper Fi
(Semper Fidelis)
Motto of the US Marine Corps

[caiusbeerquitius]

Christian,
Quote:
Circular reasoning? Based on what?



Well, based on the fact that

Ah. So you base your circular reasoning on something. :roll:

If your last post really refers to what I wrote: What you say is irrelevant for my arguments. We have laws in Germany, and they were broken. I still find it questionable to make up (i.e. "invent") gear bearing swastikas. If gear is based on an actual find, being a reconstruction, I find it unnecessary, but bearable. What you say contains too much pathos and too much half-knowledge commonplaces backing up relativistic argumentation for my taste, hence I am out of this discussion. I think I made my point, and further arguing will lead nowhere.

[Ingvar Sigurdson]

Hi Christian,

I am surprised that you castigate Tjorduolf for as you describe too much 'pathos' and 'relativistic' argument in his reply.

I don't think he was the first one to personalize his argument with 'pathos', as you yourself also did so when you stated members of your own own family had suffered under the Nazis!! No doubt most reading this where also similarly affected by that ideology and the consequences of it's implementation.

We can cite endless injustices perpetrated throughout time by ideological, religious and ethnic conflict and If we are learn to anything from history then why not apply 'relativistic' argument, one cultures morals and prevailing religious and political ideology may well be abhorrent to those following it but that does not mean we can not or should not draw lessons from it.

Again at least for those in Germany there appears to be much deeper issues then those surrounding the present discussion that still have to be resolved.

While people must be allowed to hold an opinion we all should be aware that trail by peoples court in forums such as this, any charges laid are unsubstantiated until proven otherwise.

best

Dave

[caiusbeerquitius]

Hi Dave,
As I said, I intend not to take part in this discussion any longer.
So much about your questions, but that´s it then on my side:

I am surprised that you castigate Tjorduolf for as you describe too much 'pathos' and 'relativistic' argument in his reply.

Reading it again, I am not, for that´s what it is.

I don't think he was the first one to personalize his argument with 'pathos', as you yourself also did so when you stated members of your own own family had suffered under the Nazis!!

This argument reminds me of kids in a sand box´: "HE started it, HE started it"... etc... I said "too much". I didn´t say that pathos as such is bad. It´s a question of the right dosis. :roll:

We can cite endless injustices perpetrated throughout time by ideological, religious and ethnic conflict

Indeed. But it is quite unnecessry. There are lexica out there who do this already.

If we are learn to anything from history then why not apply 'relativistic' argument,

I don´t see how relativistic argumentation can help in learning something.

one cultures morals and prevailing religious and political ideology may well be abhorrent to those following it but that does not mean we can not or should not draw lessons from it.

I do not see how this part of the sentence connects logically to the first part. But, to be honest, please save your time and don´t try to explain.
In itself it is correct, though. However, following Kant´s categorical imperative I think that what is right or wrong is not open for discussion. You hurt someone: it is wrong. You don´t: it is right.
That´s how such things can be handled easily.

Again at least for those in Germany there appears to be much deeper issues then those surrounding the present discussion that still have to be resolved.

Yes, but the German society should be able to get along solving its problems internally.

While people must be allowed to hold an opinion we all should be aware that trail by peoples court in forums such as this, any charges laid are unsubstantiated until proven otherwise.

One calls that in latin "in dubio pro reo", and IIRC I quoted this very sentence earlier, above.

[Ingvar Sigurdson]

Hi Christian,

Thanks for your reply. Of course German society should be able to to solve it's own problems, I do however find that sentiment at odds with the German Goverment's recent attempts to impose their own Anti-Nazi legislation on the European Union. :wink:

No doubt that would mean the censorship of the Fylfot, Swastika. Hooked Cross or what ever you wish to name it. Perhaps the intent is meant well, however misguided. My own concern is that this would be a dis-service to those of our communities who adhere to a pagan faith. Imagine attempting to pass legislation banning other religion's symbols. :roll:

Although it has been said in gest by others on this thread I find it increasingly a paradox that while we find it acceptable to portray aspects of Roman Civilisation, and what in general is portrayed is a sanitised version of it, which one must admit is not necessarily a full and faithful representation, who wants to be the slave labourer toiling in the lead mines, or the criminal or 'religous zealot' in his last death throws, the dispossesed tribesman selling his child for a hand full of grain? What visitor to our museums out for the day with the kids wants too?We readily accept when portraying Roman martial aspects, the instrument of the Empire's conquests, marching under the Eagle.;no doubt for many of those within and without that Empire a symbol just as hated as as the swastika would become in the 20th century, without a second thought.

Yet we look beyond that and celebrate those aspects of Roman civilisation that many find admirable.

Likewise we must learn to look beyond the symbols of Germanic re-enactment that cause offense to some, and not be afraid to be able to say something positive also about those cultures, with out for ever been tainted by recent German history.

best

Dave

[Ulfwin]

Are you talking about the Ulfhednar or about the swastika? About the swastika I think it should be handled with care, not only, but especially in Germany. The Ulfhednar didn't.

About the Ulfhednar Germany: it makes no sense to defend their use of the swastika repeatedly. It misses the point. It is interesting, that there seem to be only foreign members / friends of the Ulfhednar who write in this forum, but no one of the German Ulfhednar himself. But what should they write? Besides "sorry, if we offended s.o." and "don't you see what happens: we are put in a nasty situation and whatever we say wouldn't change anything, because the mainstream decided to dislike us."
And I think that is at least one thing the Ulfh. can be blamed for: lack of diplomatic abilities and a behaviour, say arrogance, that made it impossible for other groups to become friends with them.

I am not talking about people who seem to thrive on the witchhunt, but about friendly, harmless folks doing merovingian themselves, in one case on a definitely less developed level than Ulfh., in another case just with a different focus. People who share similar interests, but not behaving as the haughty warriors. I got the impression, that they somehow claimed to be the only "true" warriors and younger groups have no right to be seen besides them. A problem in making a diferrence between intime and outtime, maybe? And that lashes back in having no friends, no positive voices in a public discussion like these days'.

What was also negative is putting the attack in a leftwing extremist context. The reaction of Arian Ziliox to the reproach "Ulfh. + swastika = Nazi" was "there is a leftwing extremist conspiracy against us", and by that means he put himself in that "rightwing against leftwing" thingy. In a game, that is on both sides strange for "normal" people.
So this is broken glass by now.

I understand well, that there must be a politic discussion in society, including reenactment and living history. That the cooperation with musea and adressing to the public has to be handled with care and brains. I find the demandment "no politics" somehow silly, because a citizen of a civilized state should better be political than unpolitical, but of course a reenactment show should not be abused for propaganda.

However, I am afraid that there is indeed a mix up in the actual discussion in Germany, and both the Ulfhednar's display of swastika, forbidden tattoo, modern martial / militaristic outfit did a damage to the public image of our hobby, and also does the overeager reaction of many who are hence disputing. For a neutral witness there is the smell of personal dislike between the disputants, unprofessional behaviour at all. If I was the president of the - non existing - office for museal affairs, I would read all the stuff and judge "okay, some of these guys maybe Nazis or otherwise illminded, but what is sure, all of them are a great kindergarden who see my musea only as a playground for their internal animosities. Best stop that all. No more hobby living history. Full stop."
And to avoid such judgement, the subject always trails off to quality of display, then to hickhack among the disputants, than back to the ohsoevil Ulfhednar.

I think, that the Ulfh. have damaged our public image, the public hassle with the Ulfhednar has made the damage worse, the outing of internal animosities makes it much worse, and we should leave the Ulfh. and the hickhack a soon as possible. We'd better concentrate on constructive consequences. It is good, that there is a discussion about quality and about how an organizer is responsible for those he invites.

It is good, that the musea are now frightened of inviting a "bad" group and start looking at us. Since the Ulfhednar disaster I have four times more communication with organizers. Before it was mainly talking about our prize, now it is interest in what we show, how we approach the public, how we handle the sensitive "Germanism", what exactly we mean, when we show a fight between Romans and Germans or sing an ancient "hero song" or why my group calls itself "Ulfinger". And that is good. Very good.

On that grounds one can start and go forward. A positive declaration of how it should be done. But I am afraid, that everytime when it goes back to counting the number of swastikas or the initial Ulfhednar incident, then there will be a repetition of Ulfhednar disgust, followed by reenactor X doesn't like reenactor Z quarrels, and the snake bites its tail.

Don't take me wrong: the public dicussion in Germany is important, it was provoked by the Ulfhednar disaster, but we should leave the Ulfhednar to themselves and maybe to the authorities, instead of daily returning to them. The problem is not, that they have overused the swastika and lack of diplomacy. That is still a problem for them, but for us it is over. We have now other problems to solve. Just to demonstrate distance to the Ulfhednar is no solution. If they are in Germany really wrecked, then they will be forgotten soon, so we can't rely on them as omnipresent badguys. :wink: What will we do then? Look for other bad guys? Or solve our problems without a bogeyman?

Christian, this text was not to your adress! That is how I judge the ongoings in the German "scene" in general. With you I agree that the foereign point of view to the handling of swastika display is not compatible with the German one.
We have to be much more careful and better display less swastika as the archeological findings allow than one too much. And, whenever this symbol is portrayed, it should be explained. Not only by a website disclaimer, but activeley, at the event. It is better to show a written exposé where use and abuse of that ornament is explained, with maybe a such decorated tunic or phalera on a table, than just wearing it and playing the cool warrior. It mustn't be silenced, but it still needs a specific commentary.