A horror story by Josephus

[sicarii sam]

the scenes where josephus is walking around the city walls and gets stuff thrown at him makes me laugh for some reason. kind of like a bad comedian getting stuff thrown at him by the audience.

[sicarii sam]

I think also the jewish wars are a very untapped resource for people wanting to understand the campaign of the roman army fighting a guerilla war rather than head on collissions.

Josephus has regained some serious attention by steve mason and a few others but I think it goes on as a side note because of its connection to the jews and religion. One could certainly make and academic career on a number of subjects by working on josephus. It also gives incredible insight into the political social climate of the first century. Without him we would be left to guess at so many things. Scholars of the Historical jesus use him as a backdrop. Im reading The historical jesus and 2/3 of the book is an examination of josephus.

Really the jewish revolt and the destruction of the temple set up the seeds of western civilization with the de centralizing of christianity.

[Jona Lendering]

So how much credence do you give to the story of the starving mother within the besieged Jerusalem eating her baby?

I have been thinking about it a bit more. I think it's invented.

Deuteronomy 28:53-56:
And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee: So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave: So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates. The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter.

2 Kings 6.24-30 (cf. Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 9.64-67)
And it came to pass after this, that Benhadad king of Syria gathered all his host, and went up, and besieged Samaria. And there was a great famine in Samaria: and, behold, they besieged it, until an ass's head was sold for fourscore pieces of silver, and the fourth part of a cab of dove's dung for five pieces of silver. And as the king of Israel was passing by upon the wall, there cried a woman unto him, saying, Help, my lord, O king. And he said, If the LORD do not help thee, whence shall I help thee? out of the barnfloor, or out of the winepress? And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son. And it came to pass, when the king heard the words of the woman, that he rent his clothes; and he passed by upon the wall, and the people looked, and, behold, he had sackcloth within upon his flesh.

Jeremiah 19.6-9
behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter. And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth. And I will make this city desolate, and an hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished and hiss because of all the plagues thereof. And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.

[marsvigilia]

On the other hand maybe it wasn't her baby.

[FAVENTIANVS]

Yeah, maybe it was his.

[Matt Lukes]

Here is a story by Josephus (Jewish War, 3.246)

And any one may learn the force of the ballistas by what happened this very night [...] a pregnant woman had her belly so violently struck, as she was just come out of her house, that the infant was carried to the distance of half a furlong, so great was the force of that engine.

My edition says that this is no doubt exaggerated. Maybe a obstetrician knows it better,

This story is a bit hard to believe, although I can think of arguments for both sides; skin and muscle is VERY tough to tear, so I have trouble believing any kind of blunt force, assuming we're talking about a stone-throwing ballista, would be sufficient to split a pregnant woman open and cause the baby to exit. The force necessary would more likely throw her a long distance first. Then again, we're talking about a large fluid-filled sac- fluid that's largely incompressible so would transmit the force right through to the opposite side and maybe it would be enough to cause a rend. I'm more inclined to think it untrue, but then truth is often stranger than fiction...

but here is a quote from a Dutch inscription in a church, dating back to the seventeenth century:

On the 29th of August 1647, Jacob Eg and Trijn Jans, a couple from the Westzaandam and Zeeburg quarter, were attacked, hit and maltreated by an angry bull [...] and died [...]. Both were buried in the New Church, in this town.
Trijn Jans was in the final days of her pregnancy. She was lifted up on the horns of the bull, thrown up, and her belly and hip were cut open, and the baby was thrown out of her body through this hole. The baby and the mother fell in a pool of water [...]separated by about twenty meters. The boy was baptized and called Jacob, but died on the 23d of May 1648, and was buried with his parents.

This one is far more believable- the bull's horn would easily penetrate and the incredible force that can be generated by his neck, I could easily see a penetration turning into a long tear that could allow the baby out.

Not fun to say the least...

[Jona Lendering]

Not fun to say the least...

It's just terrible.

Personally I find it always very difficult to conceptualize what war really means; examples like these, however, give me a very small impression.

It's like World War II: I do not understand what "six million" means, until I read a person account like Art Spiegelman's Maus, or the diary of Anne Frank. (I'm often reminded of her because I live close to her hiding place; I can hear the church bells she mentions in her diary.)

[Tarbicus]

skin and muscle is VERY tough to tear, so I have trouble believing any kind of blunt force, assuming we're talking about a stone-throwing ballista,

Then surely the ballista fired a bolt rather than a stone, which still gives credence to the story.

Jona, I'm not sure how the Bible references affect the Josephus account?

[Praefectusclassis]

I think Jona's suggesting that Josephus may have gotten inspired from the Bible for his baby-eating story.

[Tarbicus]

I thought as much, ta, but are there any other such Biblical references in Josephus' account of the war?

[Matt Lukes]

skin and muscle is VERY tough to tear, so I have trouble believing any kind of blunt force, assuming we're talking about a stone-throwing ballista,

Then surely the ballista fired a bolt rather than a stone, which still gives credence to the story.

But that wouldn't work at all- a powerful bolt would just produce a through and through wound. Even if it had a broadhead tip, which is not normally the case (seemingly), that would only make an 'incision' if it just happened to strike along one blade only as the missile passed by and that wouldn't have any impact force to make anything move a distance.

No, the quote is clearly describing very powerful impact force which can only mean a stone-throwing ballista.

As was mentioned before things like this are commonly seen (virtually always?) in propaganda even now. It's a very easy way to demonize an enemy- suggesting he kills women and children on purpose. Josephus seems to be doing it in a typically sneaky way too- sounding initially like he's just commenting on the frightening power of the weapon, but given the nature of that weapon- direct fire- he can't be doing anything but claiming the Romans deliberately shot at a pregnant woman and killed both her and her unborn child...

[Jona Lendering]

I thought as much, ta, but are there any other such Biblical references in Josephus' account of the war?

Yes, but I am not capable of checking them easily, because I find reading Greek very difficult and have never read the Septuagint, which is Josephus' Bible. So I will not recognize allusions.

I understand that J.J. Price has published a book called Jerusalem under siege (1992), in which he has studied the subject and found many parallels.

It is of course what we might expect from a Jewish author. Historical facts were created to give meaning to the events. For example, the rabbinical sources say that Bethar (last stond of Bar Kachba) fell on the ninth of Ab, which is impossible but stresses the parallel with the fall of the temple in 70. Other example: Jesus was, to Matthew and Luke, the messiah, therefore, he had to be born in Betlehem, and there had to be some sort of celestial sign.

[Tarbicus]

@Matt
Matt, are you suggesting that if it was a bolt it could not go through an unarmoured person? I find that hard to believe. I also don't agree with your idea that the Romans would have had to deliberately target her. She stepped out of a buidling straight into the path of the 'missile', which suggests it was already aimed and fired before she was even through the doorway. Skin and muscle are not too tough to be torn by a heavy sharp object travelling at high velocity.

@Jona
I'm to be convinced yet that the story is a Biblical one, but I have an open mind about that. Strange things happen in wars and it would not surprise me whatsoever if it turned out to be true.

[Magnus]

Tarbi, I think what matt is suggesting is what you wrote...that the bolt would pierce and either get stuck in her body, or in the case of a mass of flesh, would keep going right through. I don't think the bolt has enough kinetic energy to "mushroom out" creating a large area of effect. Rather, it's made to pierce as you said. Thus he's ruling out the bolt throwing ballista in favour of something with a larger surface area, like a stone.

Sorry to speak for you matt, I'll just shut up now, especially if that's not what you meant.

[Tarbicus]

I'm feeling a bit squeamish now. If hit in the stomach the bolt could carry the baby with it.

Gonna barf now. :oops: