Artillery Test on Harzhorn Battlefield (235 AD)

[Simplex]

Another TV-Special (this time on 3SAT-TV)
http://www.hannover.1730sat1.de/aktuell....ws]=103838
(A little ironic nod towards "Da Hollywood Romans" [?] and an interesting interview with Dr.
Moosbauer -- along with different camera-angles as compared to above TV-Special).
An impressive press-roundup they must have had there. ;-)

Greez

Simplex

[Simplex]

For completeness' sake:
A pic of the smallest piece, built by disciples of a bavarian (Traunstein ?) highschool and their teachers.
http://www.traunsteiner-tagblatt.de/home...34601.html
Most interesting (part of)statement is that they estimate to reach an effective range of 300-400 m
when this piece is fully "tricked out".

Greez

Simplex

[P. Clodius Secundus]

Most interesting (part of)statement is that they estimate to reach an effective range of 300-400 m
when this piece is fully "tricked out".

If they keep building it backwards I think 300-400m is a bit ambitious, but possible. That would be a respectable range for a wood-framed Vitruvian era scorpion, but it is only about half of what the later iron-framed ballista they a trying to build should do.

[Simplex]

...to be more specific:
Lehrer Altmann ist davon überzeugt, dass die Römer mit den Geschossen sogar Entfernungen von 300, vielleicht sogar 400 Metern überbrücken konnten. Dies wolle man zu einem späteren Zeitpunkt testen.
=Teacher Altmann is convinced, that the romans were capable of "bridging" distances of 300m, later on probably 400m, with their projectiles. This is to be tested at a later moment.

Sorry for "going over" the original text too sloppy.

Greez

Simplex

Even more from another local source ( and that includes pics! :wink: )
http://www.wochenblatt.de/nachrichten/tr...099,420828

[P. Clodius Secundus]

Thanks for the clarification. It would appear then that Herr Altmann is saying that the eariler (presumably wooden-framers) could effectively shoot 300m and later ones (iron-framers) up to 400m. If that is a correct assessment of his statements,I would suggest that he is seriously underestimating the power of these machines, especially the iron-framed ballista.

[Simplex]

....I have to excuse/apologize again. :oops:
I think I should not participate in a forum with a (to me) foreign language
between Sept. and Februar, as I'm constant running out of energy and focusation due to
jobs' requirements -- I have probably become too old for that.:dizzy:

I'll try another one for good.
Lehrer Altmann ist davon überzeugt, dass die Römer mit den Geschossen sogar Entfernungen von 300, vielleicht sogar 400 Metern überbrücken konnten. Dies wolle man zu einem späteren Zeitpunkt testen.
= .....that the romans could bridge distances of 300, probably 400m.......

Hope I got it right this time.
I don't want to molest this forum with faulty translations again this year.

Greez & Out

Simplex

[M. Demetrius]

The problem may stem from the word "bridge", which is probably not the best translation, if I get the drift of the sentence. Is he saying that these machines could launch a projectile that far? That's entirely believable, and even greater distances have been cited, for example, in the siege of Jerusalem. Even sling bullets could be hurled nearly that far, reportedly (not by me, however).

[P. Clodius Secundus]

There are citations that have been discussed in other threads that suggest significantly greater ranges for the older Greek and Roman weapons. For the later iron-framers there is anecdotal evidence that they would shoot more than twice that distance, up to and including over the Danube. If his goal is to someday make his backwards (IMHO) ballista work as good as the average wood-framed scorpion, that is no great feat. That is like celebrating that a broken clock is right twice a day. What I would be interested to see is how their out-swinger compares to the similar sized in-swinger that was there. I'll bet that as tuning and testing continue, the in-swinger continues to improve while the out-swinger rapidly peaks out without showing any significant advantage or even equalling a Vitruvian scorpio with similar sized washers.

[D B Campbell]

... 300-400m ... would be a respectable range for a wood-framed Vitruvian era scorpion, but it is only about half of what the later iron-framed ballista they a trying to build should do.

Of course, Dietwulf Baatz already established this by theoretical means (combined with his long practical knowledge of Schramm's Saalburg machines). I reproduced his important graph in the Osprey Greek and Roman Artillery book (p. 21). The only variable that is open to question is his assumption that the initial velocity was around 70m/s. This still seems likely for the average Vitruvian machine, but we are now seeing that the outswinger design can achieve a faster initial velocity.

However, in my opinion, it becomes rather academic, as the catapult remains an anti-personnel weapon, meaning that it is only effective against a target that can be seen and isolated. How's your eyesight over 400m, trying to track a human-sized object that is most likely jogging all over the place to spoil your aim?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Point it at the mass of the enemy formation, and fire! You will hit someone! 8-)

[D B Campbell]

You will hit someone! 8-)

At Harzhorn, more likely you'll hit a tree!!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

:lol:

[M. Demetrius]

If nothing else, you will almost always hit the ground.

[P. Clodius Secundus]

Duncan,
Nick Watts has demonstrated that he can obtain 6 meter, 3-shot groups at 800+ meters. The bolts strike as 50-60 degree angles with sufficent force to penetrate 18" of head packed earth. To maintain proper C3 of an army in battle, a general needs staff officers dispatch riders, buccinators etc. In other words, an entourage. He must also be within visual proximity to the line of battle. This places him and his command group in range, and offers a very high-value target. If you have a weapon at your disposal that can loose a few bolts at any mass of troops and thereby harass, disperse, or force them to move further from the front lines, you significantly degrade their ability to influence the battle.
Thinking of these machines solely as direct-fire line of sight sniper weapons is to ignore the greatest utility they offer. Namely, the ability to project power and expand the battlespace beyond the limits of human musclepower alone.

[Simplex]

Update as per 24th of October, 2013:
According to the Trierer Volksfreund online(today), there will be such a test
(or a similar one -- they are not very specific about peculiarities :whistle: --maybe it will be better if you "pay up" )
https://www.volksfreund.de/nachrichten/r...64,3681632at at the Föhren airfield near Trier. (Community of Schweich)
Like I said the Volksfreund is not very specific about the exact date and the likes so yo maybe try the call the airfield directly at :
Flugplatz Föhren 1 -D54343 Föhren
0049--(0)6502 2999
[email protected]
I'm "outta time 'n outa money" so I'll have to skip that event anyway.

Greez

Simplex