About Ulfhednar (continued)

[caiusbeerquitius]

This is a continuation of the posts in this thread:
link from old RAT

@ Redwald / Paul:

Really? And the ss used triskelles? Surely the form of the swastika is very different? Perhaps you can show us an ss flag that looks similar?

Schalburg-Korps flag, SS

Together with the general setting of the flag I mentioned before, i am able to see a lot of parallels. If you don´t, let´s agree to disagree.

Not so, I have just checked this by looking at the 34 four members on the website -- only two have anything vaguely like a swastika, one of the Polish members has a yellow sun wheel on his red shield and an English member has a continuous swastika type pattern on his tunic edging. This is of the type often seen on Greek friezes.
In other pictures on the site - Arian does have a frieze on his horse blanket and there are one or two swastika type designs on shields -- none of these are of the type used by the nazis.

You miss my point entirely. If you read again what I wrote: I summed up briefly what the discussion in Germany was about and what happened. Then a discussion started, where i mand up my point: IMO it is irresponsible and quite questionable to sport the swastika on equipment shown in public at a public official event payed for by the tax payers. I don´t mind if someone has a gear full of swastikas if it makes him / her happy. But not on such an event. Not in public. At least, not in Germany. And especially not, if someone from the group (member or not, since this is not recognizeable to the audfience) sports a criminal tatto and shows it in public.

As for the frequency of the appearance of the symbol in ancient times -- well you are entitled to your opinion, however, you must accept that others may have different ideas to you.

Well, IMO the findings don´t support such an amount of swastikas and swastika-like symbols for that period. If it does in your opinion, fine, but you should know and should / must have known that it is provoking people, and thus you should be able to live with the consequences such a provoking behaviour brings along. e.g. uncomfortable questions.

I am not sure why you seem to be going out of your way to try and build a case against Ulfhednar, however, that, too is your privilege. However the members of Ulfhednar are my friends and the implications that you seem to be making sadden me

That was initially not my intention, the discussion just came along. As I just said above, you should be able to bear this, since the swastikas provoke. It is not so much about Ulfhednar on my side, but generally about the use of swastikas in reenactment. The Ulfhednar are an actual example.

As I wrote above:

Exactly, as I commented on Susanna´s posting. This is something I do not like. IMO the authorities are there to handle such things. A witch-hunt does not help at all, contrary, it makes all worse, since it throws a bad light on the witch hunters as well as on the "witches". All in all the whole Living History community takes damage.
However, it still should be allowed to talk about all this, and to have an opinion about this.

Frankly, I find it good that you take position here and that you are able to / try to clarify things. Information can mainly be gained here from the U.-website and the written reports, and thus is, of course restricted /possibly biased / incomplete.

@ Tjordulf:

Yes maybe Ulfhednars flag does resemble an SS one, but isn't it equally logical that this works the other way round also, that the SS flag is meant to echo an earlier Germanic sense of warrior ethic, albiet a misguided one.

hock: Circular reasoning? Based on what?

By trying to eradicate all uses of any historical symbols that have been " stolen" by extremists, that only serves to highlight its power in its later perverted form. The Swastika, as most of you should know has been used by just about every major ancient civilisation throughout history, ie Roman, Egyptian, Hindu, North American indian and in the context of this thread Northern European Germanic tribes. So, by using it in its original and authentic context, it serves to (re) educate people of the meaning of this symbol and takes away the power from those that would continue to misuse it. Putting ones head under the pillow doesn't make the monster go away! Sometimes we have to face up to fear and hate, but denial and silencing is not the way to do it.

So what you say is: It is more important to retrieve the stolen symbol than to respect the dead / living people who regard the symbol as the symbol of one of the biggest atrocities in history? hock:

A swastika worn on a migration period brooch whilst at a re-enactment of the migration period, is So not the same thing as wearing a swastika on a red armband at a holocaust memorial service. Obviously the key thing here is intent, and whilst Ulfhednar are in effect being accused of being neo nazi's, albeit covertly, I feel this is wholly unjust and inaccurate. The real danger here is from the ones who don't hide their extreme beliefs, or dress it up in re-enactment, if one has a message, why make it ambiguous. The Overt neo nazi's are the ones who should be targeted for their use of the swastika, because of the hatred that is implicit with the context of their use of it. Teach history, enjoy learning history, but leave modern Politics and Religion out of it.

All said above. What the heck is so important abbout the symbol? There are enough other nice ones.

@ Ceawlin:
Welcome to the board!

Christian, I was interested to find out you know my employment status. Sadly this is not the case and I have to work damn hard (as a gardener if you are interested) to support my family and my hobby.

However, this seems to be the case for a large part of the Germans in your group. I mean the German members of Ulfhednar.
If this is not the case, I was misinformed.

Do you mean all re-enactors Christian? If so I agree, let's have a laugh at ourselves.

Exactly. "individualists"

Well Christian, as yet we have not had any feedback on RAT from Polish French or German members, sinister to you no doubt, but as I have actually gone out and met many of these people, I can tell you that not many of them can speak English. Those that can are infinetely better in my native tongue than I am in theirs, but still, their spoken and written English is not as polished as yours, and thus not up to debating in a mainly English forum. There is also the possibility that many feel they have better things to do.

Nah, I actually meant the German part of the group, especially the leader, and I meant: In German.

Reference the display of swastikas, Redwald and Tjordulf seem to have covered this well, but I will have my say. As Roman re-enactors many of you will know the rather old book by Peteson "The Roman Legions in Colour Photographs". I'm not sure how well this has aged but on page 36 a member of Milites Litoris Saxoni sports a tunic based on the Piazza Armerina mosaic, minus the swastika to "...avoid wearisome arguement with ill informed members of the public." This always struck me as rather a shame, and when it boils down to it it is the distortion of history to suit current idealogy. (Hmmm, what next? Book burning?)

Clearly and understandably the swastika can upset people, but I would like to think most of them are intelligent enough to distinguish between a swastika on say, an Anglo-Saxon spearhead (Dover Buckland Grave 93) and a nazi swastika. Unfortunately it is the " ill-informed" (or rather well informed but bloody minded) individuals that deliberatley draw no difference between the two.

All said above. "provocation and it´s consequences". See also this thread:

link from old RAT

So to sum up it would be nice if many of the accusers of Ulfhednar would actually come and meet us and share a glass, before making statements publicly. It appears to me that because a high percentage (not all) of Ulfhednar members are long haired and bearded individuals, who like loud music and leather jackets (myself included) as well as superb re-enactment kit, it makes them an easy target for repectfully dressed establishment witch hunters and inquisitors.

I´m in for that, if there should open up a possibility somewhere sometime. However, as I said above, It was not my intent to "accuse" as such, although I gather that it may look like that to you. It´s just that I am a bit allergic to too many swastikas - a large part of my family suffered quite a bit from the Nazis - My Great-Grandfather was a founding member of the SPD. And before Angus jumps in on this: NO, I am not a social democrat or a supporter of them. :wink: