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+--- Thread: Leather Cuirass (/showthread.php?tid=7315)
Re: Leather Cuirass - Paullus Scipio - 05-09-2007
Sound words of advice, Robert, and I do apologise to anyone who has taken offence - there was none intended, just frustration at a seeming inability to "engage" in honest debate, supported by whatever evidence one can muster rather than the "Yes it is","No it isn't" kind of debate, but that may say as much about my failure to communicate my points properly as others failing to heed.
To Peter Raftos, excellent post!
You have 'stolen much of my thunder' in that I am in the process of trying to assemble/summarise all the known references, ( see earlier post )so we can all take a fresh view of an age-old topic - should be ready to post in a few days. Certainly this debate has led me to some new information on the subject, and hopefully others too ! And that will be a valuable thing to do - assemble all the known data on the subject from our collective knowledge, including re-enactment,( which can give us much valued practical hands-on experience) and thus allow us to all to re-assess what we "think" we know.
Please, any-one who can point to a piece of data, post it, with references of course!
Re: Leather Cuirass - Peter Raftos - 05-09-2007
DB Campbell,
It would be instructive if we had someone who had access to the Greek text and could translate the passage:
... in the course of that night a company of two hundred slingers was organized, while on the following day horses and horsemen to the number of fifty were examined and accepted, and jerkins (spolades) and cuirasses (thôrakes) were provided for them;
My personal interpretation was that the spolades were provided for the slingers.
Re: Leather Cuirass - MeinPanzer - 05-10-2007
Quote:DB Campbell,
It would be instructive if we had someone who had access to the Greek text and could translate the passage:
... in the course of that night a company of two hundred slingers was organized, while on the following day horses and horsemen to the number of fifty were examined and accepted, and jerkins (spolades) and cuirasses (thôrakes) were provided for them;
My personal interpretation was that the spolades were provided for the slingers.
I can have a look after I track down a LCL copy, but from the looks of it, my gut feeling is that the Greek is simply unclear. It's probably something along the lines of "de spolades kai thôrakes autois edidonto," which would tell us no more than the english translation.
leather cuirass - Paullus Scipio - 05-10-2007
Might I point out one major flaw with the idea that the spolades (undoubedly armour ) were given to slingers ?
Since when, in this period ( or any other for that matter) did slingers wear armour? Any sort of armour would impede the free use of the sling, and slow down the wearer, thus impeding his ability to run, and hence his function as psiloi !!
If Xenophon had taken the highly unusual step of equipping psiloi in this fashion, he would surely have said more and explained why.
regards, Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
Re: Leather Cuirass - Peter Raftos - 05-10-2007
I agree the text is unclear and my kitchen Greek can't help when it comes to the Perseus transliteration.
Have we yet determined that the spolas is armour? All we know is that it seems to be used in the context of 'arming up' but do we have any definitive evidence that it is armour? I think the initial suggestion that the spolas was a leather thorax came from the wargaming fraternity in the late '70's probably based on the text of the Spartan who was killed by the Karduchian arrow. Whether this was then taken up by Osprey authors next or visa versa is a moot point as Osprey authors and the more notable Wargamers were once upon a time almost interchangeable. I
agree it is often described in the context of leathern garments but there has been little evidence to show what it actually is. If we take the imaginative leap and say it is armour of sorts then where are the rest of the examples of its use?
I have not yet examined the issue of arming up psiloi or other light troops in this period so I can't comment on that. However, I am pretty sure that Byzantine light infantry from time to time were known to wear the kabadion /gambeson but my copy of McGeer's, Sowing the Dragon's Teeth is living with Egfroth at the moment so I can't give you a reference.
Re: Leather Cuirass - D B Campbell - 05-10-2007
Quote:DB Campbell,My original post has a link to the Greek text on Perseus!
It would be instructive if we had someone who had access to the Greek text and could translate the passage.
Re: leather cuirass - Dan Howard - 05-10-2007
Quote:Might I point out one major flaw with the idea that the spolades (undoubedly armour ) were given to slingers ?I can jog quite comfortably for several miles wearing 30 lbs of metal armour. I can sprint easily with no impediment. I can swing a sling. I can throw a javelin. I can fire a bow. There is no impediment so long as the armour is properly tailored to the wearer.
Since when, in this period ( or any other for that matter) did slingers wear armour? Any sort of armour would impede the free use of the sling, and slow down the wearer, thus impeding his ability to run, and hence his function as psiloi !!
Re: Leather Cuirass - Anonymous - 05-10-2007
But surely the point is that a spolas, while it might be considered protective clothing, or even armour if it were thick enough, is still very much the light-weight version and therefore suitable for light-armed troops.
Re: Leather Cuirass - MeinPanzer - 05-10-2007
Quote:I agree the text is unclear and my kitchen Greek can't help when it comes to the Perseus transliteration.
Have we yet determined that the spolas is armour? All we know is that it seems to be used in the context of 'arming up' but do we have any definitive evidence that it is armour? I think the initial suggestion that the spolas was a leather thorax came from the wargaming fraternity in the late '70's probably based on the text of the Spartan who was killed by the Karduchian arrow. Whether this was then taken up by Osprey authors next or visa versa is a moot point as Osprey authors and the more notable Wargamers were once upon a time almost interchangeable. I
From Duncan Head:
"There's Pollux, who says the spolas is a leather thorax that hangs from the shoulders. Pollux cites Sophokles, which puts the leather thorax back into the classical era, though S says it's Libyan leopard-hide, which seems odd: but it's a fragment of a play, so may just be dramatic exoticising."
So, in a roundabout way, we have a contemporary source who says that the spolas was made of leather.
Quote:My original post has a link to the Greek text on Perseus! Smile
Just as I suspected, the passage tells us no more than the english translation. The Greek reads: kai spolades kai thôrakes autois eporisthêsan.
Which, when translated literally, means "both spolades and thorakes (to) them were provided." The "autois" refers to no group in particular.
Re: Leather Cuirass - hoplite14gr - 05-10-2007
Ruben your trnaslation is exact: both spolades and thorakes were given
"autois" means "to them" in dative case not used in modern Greek.
What are the references or art interpretations that can be interpreted that the pteruges were attached?
The scalptings in the Athens museum, in the state they are now they can be interpreted both ways: and pteryges attachments on thorax and undergatment.
Spollas need not have surface under metal armor.Imagine something like the type 58 NATO webbing with pteryges hanging from the belt instead of ammo pouches. It can be both textile or hide.
@ Dunkan Head
The image shows ahoplite with bobcat or leoprd hide.
could this be aspollas?
Re: Leather Cuirass - MeinPanzer - 05-10-2007
Quote:What are the references or art interpretations that can be interpreted that the pteruges were attached?
There are numerous examples of just cuirasses, standing or sitting on their own, being illustrated with pteruges. That strongly suggests that the pteruges are attached to some kind of fixed liner in the cuirass and not a separate undergarment.
Quote:@ Dunkan Head
The image shows ahoplite with bobcat or leoprd hide.
could this be aspollas?
That doesn't look like a patterned hide at all. It looks like a plain tunic with a patterned border and a white break or scratch above and below the spearhead. Is there something I'm missing?
Re: Leather Cuirass - hoplite14gr - 05-10-2007
Quote:Fine with that but that does not exclude the undergarment option just because som cuirrasses had attachments.hoplite14gr:3gevtwxo Wrote:What are the references or art interpretations that can be interpreted that the pteruges were attached?
There are numerous examples of just cuirasses, standing or sitting on their own, being illustrated with pteruges. That strongly suggests that the pteruges are attached to some kind of fixed liner in the cuirass and not a separate undergarment.
Quote:hoplite14gr:3gevtwxo Wrote:@ Dunkan Head
The image shows ahoplite with bobcat or leoprd hide.
could this be aspollas?
That doesn't look like a patterned hide at all. It looks like a plain tunic with a patterned border and a white break or scratch above and below the spearhead. Is there something I'm missing?
The image is shrunk to fit here. I will try to find a better image on Pereus.
I recall nails in on the hanging paws.
I doubt if it is a spolas though since animal hides were described as pelti or with the name of the animal Milote-sheepskin Leonde-lionskin.
Kind regards
Re: Leather Cuirass - MeinPanzer - 05-10-2007
Quote:Fine with that but that does not exclude the undergarment option just because som cuirrasses had attachments.
That's true but I don't think there is any real evidence to suggest that undergarments with pteruges attached were worn under cuirasses. I have no doubt in my mind that undergarments were worn to alleviate the strain of wearing a heavy metal cuirass, but I don't think that the pteruges were ever attached to them instead of the cuirass.
Quote:The image is shrunk to fit here. I will try to find a better image on Pereus.
I recall nails in on the hanging paws.
I can see the details fairly clearly but I don't see a single thing that would indicate that it is any kind of animal skin. Where are the claws supposed to be?
Quote:what about those animal capes or leather cape in light troop spartan in osprey, or those that the Shepher wore?
I believe Pollux quoted Sophocles as calling the spolas a leather "thorax," so I doubt that it was some kind of cape.
Re: Leather Cuirass - Dan Howard - 05-11-2007
I'm inclined to agree that metal cuirasses had a textile liner to which the pteruges were attached. That doesn't mean that some sort of arming garment wasn't worn underneath. Medieval plate armour often had textile liners as well as being fixed to an arming doublet underneath.
Question: Did the Greeks ever use the word "thorax" to describe an article of clothing or was it only reserved for armour?
Re: Leather Cuirass - Peter Raftos - 05-11-2007
Excellent stuff folks,
Thanks for the link Paul A. Dan, my limited re-enactment experience gives me the same results in a kabadion - it has to be well fitted. Neat translation Ruben backed up by Stefanos a native speaker who can parse the grammar - but the gem is Pollux quoting Sophokles - a brilliant find. (All we need is the reference! Is Duncan on the list?) Gioi keep those images coming. I think we are actually making some progress in fleshing out this little mystery since Paul Mc introduced his heresy. And surprise, surprise through a collegiate and forensic examination of the evidence.
I'm looking forward to us unravelling this particular ball of string even further.