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+--- Thread: Leather Cuirass (/showthread.php?tid=7315)
Leather cuirass - Paullus Scipio - 05-15-2007
Thanks for that Sean, I shall certainly try to find that book.
The main difficulty with the fragment of Alcaeus, and what makes me think the reference might be 'heroic' rather than 'contemporary', is that he lived around 700-650 b.c. ( as I understand it) and tube-and- yoke corselets don't appear in art for another 120-150 years.......plus the style seems awfully 'heroic' to me ( compare, for example, the fragment of Sophocles that refers to 'heroic/Homeric' linen, and chariot poles).
Re: Leather cuirass - MeinPanzer - 05-15-2007
Quote:It doesn't necessarily follow that the cheek pieces must have been painted with the same paint as the wider wall to be white. If the effect was to be metallic that may have involved other pigments to differentiate it from the corslet, which may decay differently over time.
Obviously I'm not an expert on this, but I highly doubt that. I don't think such a drastic variance in discolouration is possible. The colours overall are still very vibrant in the Lyson and Kallikles paintings, so I'm going to apply Occam's Razor and say that the cuirasses are most likely not faded.
Actually, Nick Sekunda has suggested that the L&K cuirasses are bronze, because they are painted in the exact same manner as the shield between them and a number of other details which are most likely bronze.
Quote:You have no way of being so definitive that off-white/yellowish is bronze, either. Is the opposite helm pure copper?
Unless the hilt, chape, and grip of those two swords are painted, the yellowish colour represents bronze. That other helmet is red. If anything, the greaves appear to be copper-coloured.
Re: Leather Cuirass - geala - 05-15-2007
That's a lot of valuable information in this thread. I am reconsidering leather armour after reading it.
What is not so convincing yet are the base thoughts of the "leather-arguments". There are some sources that flax was cultivated in Greece. When Pausanias speaks about "byssos" which was seldomly cultivated he mentioned by the way that flax was grown in Elis. Nothing very special in my opinion so. And we don't know wether imported linen was such expensive. Grain was also imported on a large scale as it was said before.
On the other hand great cattle with adequate leather for armour seems not to be so widely sustained. I thought at least that mainland Greece was more a country of sheeps and goats instead of cows. Is it so sure that big and thick leather hides were available at a reasonable cost? It is one thing to use leather for a shield but for armour one need even better leather. I remember the buff coats of the 17th c. AD which were quite expensive even in a "cow-culture".
I will look at the discussion with great interest, sooner or later I have to make such an armour for myself. So carry on.
The following two pictures came to my mind reading the thread and I can maybe ask some questions about it. They are from Sekundas Osprey "Greek Hoplite" and I wondered long what is depicted. The warrior on the left (edit: on the lower picture) is commentated as wisely putting his greaves on before donning his armour. But no armour is seen nearby to add. And the other guys (especially one on the right side) have not only already donned their breast armour (first) but also have pieces not worn lying around them. So is the peculiar garment of the warrior center left already his soft armour? If so leather could be excluded, it must be soft cloth armour.
The other picture (edit: the first one) could show a warm outer chiton but also a soft armour. What do you think?
(Edit: sorry for the bad quality of the pictures, I had to take photos from the book.)
Re: Leather Cuirass - geala - 05-15-2007
Sorry for double posting but I'm not able to write along after attaching pictures to a post. :?
I have two questions to Giannis:
1. Could you give me informations about one of your posted pictures, with the four Makedonian warriors? I'm very interested because i.a. it shows warriors with boots and bare feet both together. Where is it from and what time is it - late 4th or 3rd century?
2. You mentioned cotton as a much used material, more than linen. That is totally new to me. I thought we don't know much about the use of cotton in classical and hellenistic Hellas, it was known and used but much less than linen (and wool of course).
From the practical aspekt, if I could wear linen or cotton I would surely choose linen, it has only advantages. Could you give some hints to the evidence for cotton as a normal material? Perhaps I would make a chiton from it, till now I used only linen and wool.
Btw: what is the natural colour of undyed cotton? White? That could explain white chitons, other than bleached linen. Normally undyed/unbleached linen is of light grey or grey-brown colour.
Re: Leather Cuirass - Tarbicus - 05-15-2007
Quote:And we don't know wether imported linen was such expensive. Grain was also imported on a large scale as it was said before.I picked up a copy of Everson's Warfare in Ancient Greece.
'In 664 some Ionians and Carians made an expedition to Egypt (Herodotus II, 152), and this has often been noted as the time when the Greeks first came across the linen corslet and brought the idea back to Greece.'
However, he then points out that the archaeology indicates the middle of the 6th C was when its use became widespread, with the bell cuirass declining in use.
'Amasis redefined the port of Naucratis as a Greek trading centre in c. 550 and kept a Greek bodyguard (Boardman 1980b, p. 117; Herodotus III, 3). Trade between Egypt and Greece increased, and gifts of corslets were given to Greek sanctuaries.'
Quote:The other picture could show a warm outer chiton but also a soft armour. What do you think?Again according to Everson, there was an earlier linen armour that was much plainer than the "linothorax", before the Egyptian gifts.
Now the thing is, Everson also believes there were leather armours. However, it seems mostly used (in the period we're discussing) as part of the composite armour. The shoulder pieces were still linen (stood straight up when untied) and the softer nature of the leather used was to make the linothorax more flexible but needed scales attached. He thinks the thick linen was unsuitable for attaching the scales. Here's some more from the book:
'There are instances of layers of linen forming protective armour - perhaps even from the Shaft Graves - but nothing from Archaic or Classical Greece. On the other hand we do have Herodotus's written description of Amasis's linen corslet, and it seems that this mentions neither glue nor layers of linen. It apparently says that each fine thread of the corslet was made up of 360 individual strands of linen, not that the corslet is 360 layers of linen thick. A strand of linen is about 0.2mm in diameter, and 360 such strands twisted together would form a cord of about 1-1.5cm in diameter, which was then woven conventionally - although perhaps with some difficulty - to form a stiff linen shirt. A problem here is that Herodotus calls this cord a 'fine thread' (aspedoni lepti) (Herodotus III, 47). However, aspedoni in itself does not necessarily mean a thin thread, and lepti can be interpreted as the alternative meaning of the English word 'fine', i.e. delicate, well made or splendid, rather than thin. As Herodotus is describing a linen corslet of the pharaoh of Egypt, the nthis is appropriate enough. Herodotus finds the number of strands forming the cord a 'wonder to behold', and it would appear from this that the more ordinary Greek corslet had rather fewer strand giving an overall thickness of only 0.5cm, which would nevertheless be adequate.'
One thing he does mention is that there's no reason that, where we see brightly coloured armours, the linen couldn't have been coloured before the linothorax was actually woven.
I'm sure Everson will be attacked as being a dodgy reference, but then so has Sekunda before on RAT.
Quote:Obviously I'm not an expert on this, but I highly doubt that. I don't think such a drastic variance in discolouration is possible....This is where we need a chemist with the right experience of analysing ancient frescoes :wink:
Actually, Nick Sekunda has suggested that the L&K cuirasses are bronze, because they are....
Unless the hilt, chape, and grip of those two swords are painted,....
I'd say the left helmet's upper bowl is copper, but its cheek pieces are bronze (there's a difference in the colours). This could mean that the greaves are copper, yes, and I don't see why not. To take it out of the Greek period, there has been a verified Roman helmet where the cheek pieces are cast copper, and the bowl copper. Later, but ancient.
Giannis posted this interesting pic:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... friez3.jpg
What strikes me is that the left hand cuirass is a pinkish shade, which is the same colour as the bottom of the wearer's cloak. I don't think it's a wild suggestion that the cuirass is therefore textile. Also, didn't the Etruscans steal one of the linen Egyptian cuirasses?
I'll gather the stuff from Everson about the leather armour and composite armour, and post it (I only bought it yesterday and have to get to work now).
Leather cuirass - Paullus Scipio - 05-15-2007
To Geala/Wolfgang : a brief point..Earlier , when it was pointed out that flax could only be grown in a small part of S.W. Greece ( though that small part exported it in Mycenean times), it was also pointed out that the Greeks brisk import/export trade meant that they could easily have imported as much flax/linen as needed. The same holds true, of course, in the case of leather/hides ----- so not a conclusive argument either way.
To Tarbicus : You are right that Everson is hardly a good source... the idea here was to examine the original source material with a fresh, unbiased eye rather than seek to air old opinions.
The two presents to Greek Templesof Pharoah Amaris were designed to clothe what were almost certainly over-lifesize statues, and have nothing to do with Greek armour practices. At best, it would only demonstrate that Egypt was capable of producing linen corselets, which no-one is disputing.
To Paul Allen : Did you suggest that leather segmentata were ridiculous ? Sorry to pounce on this, but it is a widely held view and it provides a classic lesson to beware of what we THINK we know. ( forgive me using this as an example, no personal criticism or disrespect is intended whatsoever )
What if , fellow RATters, I were to suggest not only that leather segmented armour existed, but that I had virtually absolute proof that it did ???? ( I can almost hear the murmurs of Heresy, Heresy !!)
Not only that, but it existed precisely at the height of segmentata use in Rome and featured on a famous Roman monument ??
Do I have your attention yet ??
Then let me tell you a story. In 1975, excited by the revelations in Robinson's "Armour of Imperial Rome", I travelled to Italy to do some first-hand research ( lesson 1 - no substitute for first hand research). In Rome I stood in awe before that wonderful monument to my favourite Emperor, Trajan.....................As I wandered around it, I was drawn by the carvings on the base, and with a sharp intake of breath, I realised what I was looking at. Unlike the carvings on the spiral, which were simplified and stylised, the carvings on the base were like "photographs in stone". Incredibly detailed and life-sized ( aprox ) were objects which were very likely the 'spolia' of Trajan's dacian campaigns. If the sculptors had never seen a frontier legionary and based their legionaries on Praetorians, then they all too obviously had the spolia in front of them to carve Dacian/Sarmatian/Bastarnae arms and weapons, swords life-sized and incredibly detailed, helmets, shields, quivers, arrows, falxes, axes and spearheads. It was the next best thing to having the weapons intact !
And among the long sleeved scale coats and other armour, an incredible piece. Segmented armour that came down to the hips with no vertical shoulder pieces. Instead, the segmented armour ran horizontally across the shoulders, and continued into short sleeved tubular pieces. The shoulders were secured by straps that ran vertically over the shoulders, and at the front. The armour was bent and clearly flexible. Each segment was fastened at the front by a strap and buckle !! Fifteen or so of them, the whole thing looking like a series of leather belts fastened round the body. The armour was associated with a spangenhelm type helmet.
In an instant, I understood why historians/archaeologists had logically concluded that the stylised segmentata armour on the column were leather, because this piece, in such detail, could be nothing else.......
Segmented leather armour DID exist in 105 A.D., and is illustrated clearly on Trajan's Column !!! But it was Sarmatian rather than Roman....... still sure that leather segmentata didn't exist ?? The Romans copied many other things Sarmatian !!
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Re: Leather cuirass - Anonymous - 05-15-2007
Quote:....... still sure that leather segmentata didn't exist ??
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I wouldn't claim to be sure about anything, in this respect! I thought I'd made it clear in my earlier post that I don't think we can assert anything with much confidence. What I was saying was that, if leather armours did exist, I incline to the belief that they were more likely to be one-piece musculata, rather than segmentata. I put it no more strongly than that.
I'm trying to avoid acquiring a bias, though and, having read the arguments here, it seems to me that we should keep open minds, in the absence of conclusive evidence. I'm not convinced leather musculata didn't exist, nor that linothorakaes might not, at least sometimes, have been constructed of leather, in whole or in part. Let me put it this way; if I were the Authenticity Martinet - sorry, Officer, of the Hoplite Association, I wouldn't, at this stage, stop anyone going on the field with a well-made linothorax or muscle-cuirass of leather, or a glued, sewn or quilted linen linothorax. On the other hand, if I were AO of The Vicus, I would have a problem with a Roman segmentata in leather, though this would be, in part, due to concern for matching the generally-held view of the re-enactment community.
Perhaps I should point out that I am not the AO of either of these organisations and thus, my opinions do not necessarily coincide with their Authenticity Policy.
Leather cuirass - Paullus Scipio - 05-15-2007
To Magnus: Have you any more factual evidence regarding the performance of leather armour, other than your un-supported opinion so far that "it sucks" ?? Evidence would allow readers to make up their own minds.
I have solid scientific evidence that Greek bronze corselets ( or rather the few surviving fragments ) were around 1mm thick, and that a leather corselet 5mm thick would offer better protection, or a linen one 10 mm thick. The bronze coreslet would weigh around 3.5 kg, the leather or linen one would be around 2kg (c.f the American nylon bullet/shrapnel vest T52 at 3.5 k )
For Dan H. :- I am reluctant to trawl through all the literature, although another example of armour failure is Brasidas wounded through his shield/armour (?), but maybe I can do better ( maybe this should be shifted to the new armour pentration post)
An examination of hundreds of helmets/fragmentary helmets dedicated at Olympia showed the following (ignoring those with square holes which might be butt- spike 'coup de gras' or nail holes to hang up the trophy):-
1. About 150 helmets showed dents of various sorts ( but not certain because many had missing sections due to corrosion)
2. 40-50 have small indentations consistent with slingstone/stone damage
3. 3 have obvious perforations due to battle damage
4. 17 have slash/stab damage which would have been unlikely to inflict fatal wounds.
There are few/no literary references to helmet perforation from the Persian war period, and nothing to match the Homeric frequent descriptions of helmet failure.
The fact that helmets could be easily punctured by spear-butts (with kinetic energy of around 60J) or nails, but could resist hand-blows/arrows with 30-40 J kinetic energy shows the armourers were walking a fine tightrope between lightness and resistance.
Leather cuirass - Paullus Scipio - 05-15-2007
To Paul Allen :- again my apologies,comrade, I was not trying to disparage your views in any way, and I agree 100% with your latest post !
You have expressed more succinctly than I, the point I ws trying to make !
Which allows us to answer the original question. If Greek re-enactors choose to portray tube-and- yoke coreselets as leather, there is more evidence to support them ( or as much at least ) than otherwise !!!!!!!
Re: Leather Cuirass - Anonymous - 05-15-2007
No apology necessary, the tone of your messages has always seemed courteous, to me.
Re: Leather cuirass - Dan Howard - 05-15-2007
Quote:The fact that helmets could be easily punctured by spear-butts (with kinetic energy of around 60J) or nails, but could resist hand-blows/arrows with 30-40 J kinetic energy shows the armourers were walking a fine tightrope between lightness and resistance.If you place a helmet on a rigid surface and give me a hammer then I could easily drive a pencil through it. Try doing the same thing while it is still on someone's head. My point is that there would be no inconsistency if the helmet was both proof against battlefield weapons while still being susceptible to a nail (yes I think they are nail holes, not butt-spike holes)
IMO thereis no way in hell that Trajan's column can be used to support the theory that segmentatas were made of leather. It can't even be used to help someone make a replica of a metal one.
Re: Leather Cuirass - Dan Howard - 05-15-2007
Quote:I disagree...at least for leather's defensive capabilities. If used as a solid piece it sucks.Unless it was layered over something else such as a mail hauberk, as was done in the Middle Ages.
Re: Leather Cuirass - Giannis K. Hoplite - 05-15-2007
Quote:I have two questions to Giannis:
1. Could you give me informations about one of your posted pictures, with the four Makedonian warriors? I'm very interested because i.a. it shows warriors with boots and bare feet both together. Where is it from and what time is it - late 4th or 3rd century?
2. You mentioned cotton as a much used material, more than linen. That is totally new to me. I thought we don't know much about the use of cotton in classical and hellenistic Hellas, it was known and used but much less than linen (and wool of course).
From the practical aspekt, if I could wear linen or cotton I would surely choose linen, it has only advantages. Could you give some hints to the evidence for cotton as a normal material? Perhaps I would make a chiton from it, till now I used only linen and wool.
Btw: what is the natural colour of undyed cotton? White? That could explain white chitons, other than bleached linen. Normally undyed/unbleached linen is of light grey or grey-brown colour.
1.You'll find this pic and many more interesting ones here:
http://people.clemson.edu/~elizab/Maced ... Athanasios
2.Well...the truth is that I don't remember the exact post I wrote this but is I did say that cotton was used(and even more than linen!) then it's sure I meant wool :oops: !!! I don't know of any cotton objects,only heard of cotton decoration in that Egyptian linothorax.Just to answer your question,yes cotton is originally white and vastly cultivated in my area.
PS.You have an old PM from me.
Re: Leather Cuirass - hoplite14gr - 05-15-2007
Quote:Giannis K. Hoplite:28mqxpr8 Wrote:I'm not saying I have a piece of evidence that the spolas looked like this,nor that this illustration is particularly accurate(sarissas without butt spike?),but this artist's interpretation of the spolas in interesting.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... charge.jpg
There is no mention of the spolas being worn by phalangites. There is debate over an item called the kotthubos in the Amphipolis code. Some think it is a drinking cup, others a leather jerkin (based on some analogous words for jerkins, IIRC). I think that is what the artist has tried to represent here (though, as you say, much of this image is inaccurate).
Gianni this item is probably drawn, probably base on from a 5th century lekethos in the National Museum in Athens that shows a "thick overgament" on achiton.
I feel it was ancient artists error and modern artistw liberal interpretation.
The cylix that you poste on page 9 probaly shows a warrior with animal skin on the left but as I posted before this cannot be a spollas byt rather a "LEONTI"
Quote:Spolas,perizoma or just plain new fashion tunic?
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... porpax.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... partur.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... Munich.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... LINGER.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... gr/GR8.jpg
Probably heavy wollen tunic, although N. Sekunda interprets it as spollas.
The far left warrior in the chakidic psyctra that Gioi posted carries a spollas(???) or a very archaic form of scale armor(????).
Very ambiguous in my opinion.
The vase Gioi posted in page 8 is "F 1904 in Berlin Museum" was painted painted by Exekias and the any say the dead warrior is carrying spolas and that also a
spollas appears under the carrier's armor. Very subjective in my opinion-I am not convinced.
Reference for this please:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... LINGER.jpg
Kind regards
Re: Leather Cuirass - MeinPanzer - 05-15-2007
Quote:Sorry for double posting but I'm not able to write along after attaching pictures to a post. :?
I have two questions to Giannis:
1. Could you give me informations about one of your posted pictures, with the four Makedonian warriors? I'm very interested because i.a. it shows warriors with boots and bare feet both together. Where is it from and what time is it - late 4th or 3rd century?
It's from a tomb uncovered in 1994 in Aghios Athanasios and is believed to date to the late 4th century BC. Of the eight warriors, only one is barefooted, and all the rest wear sturdy lacework boots.
Quote:This is where we need a chemist with the right experience of analysing ancient frescoes Wink
I'd say the left helmet's upper bowl is copper, but its cheek pieces are bronze (there's a difference in the colours). This could mean that the greaves are copper, yes, and I don't see why not. To take it out of the Greek period, there has been a verified Roman helmet where the cheek pieces are cast copper, and the bowl copper. Later, but ancient.
In this case, I think you are relying on poor photographs to judge colours. I have some very high quality photographs that I can post that show the colours much better. The bowl of the leftmost helmet is an entirely different colour from the greaves and is very red. It is exactly the same colour as one of the two painted bands on the other helmet, so it follows logically that it was painted as well.
Quote:Giannis posted this interesting pic:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... friez3.jpg
What strikes me is that the left hand cuirass is a pinkish shade, which is the same colour as the bottom of the wearer's cloak. I don't think it's a wild suggestion that the cuirass is therefore textile. Also, didn't the Etruscans steal one of the linen Egyptian cuirasses?
It's purple, not pink, and yes, I suggested this before- all the cloaks worn by the men in this painting are yellowish brown with a purple band running along the bottom edge which is exactly the same colour as their cuirasses, perhaps suggesting they are both textile.