+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Greek Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Thread: Leather Cuirass (/showthread.php?tid=7315)
Re: Leather Cuirass - Giannis K. Hoplite - 05-14-2007
As I understand Ruben's thought,his point is that soft leather is wraped and un wrapted all the time,not to mention it's flexibility during the pushing and fighting.When you do all these to the cuirass,it's external surface is becoming larger and smaller.For a paint to last in such treatment it has also to be flexible.A flexible paint sounds unlikely in ancient times.Sorry Ruben if I explained your theory incorrectly
Khairete
Re: Leather Cuirass - Giannis K. Hoplite - 05-14-2007
Spolas,perizoma or just plain new fashion tunic?
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... porpax.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... partur.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... Munich.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... LINGER.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... gr/GR8.jpg
Re: Leather Cuirass - MeinPanzer - 05-14-2007
Quote:As I understand Ruben's thought,his point is that soft leather is wraped and un wrapted all the time,not to mention it's flexibility during the pushing and fighting.When you do all these to the cuirass,it's external surface is becoming larger and smaller.For a paint to last in such treatment it has also to be flexible.A flexible paint sounds unlikely in ancient times.Sorry Ruben if I explained your theory incorrectly
Khairete
You got it perfectly right, actually
. For things like shoulder yokes and pteruges, the surface would be stretched and contracted by bending, which would inevitably cause any paint on the surface to flake. A hard surface, like hardened leather or very stiff linen, could be alright, but we can see from lots of iconographic evidence that at least the yokes and pteruges were intended to be flexible and to bend (especially the pteuges).
Re: Leather Cuirass - Peter Raftos - 05-14-2007
Ruben,
I take your point but both linen and leather can be dyed before construction.
Giannis,
J382fromMunich.jpg definitely looks like a perizoma
Paul
There was a very cheap and repeatable method for colouring bronze and stone. Pigments were added to wax and the wax applied when it was quite warm and smoothed down. This technique was mainly used on statues.
Re: Leather Cuirass - Giannis K. Hoplite - 05-14-2007
Quote:Giannis,
J382fromMunich.jpg definitely looks like a perizoma
Yes Peter,certainly,just it looks as if made from a similar material and similar fashion to some of the others.I'm inclined to think that this one:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... gr/GR8.jpg
shows this thick "tunic" to be worn over* the actual chiton.The photo is not clear but if you see at the bottom edge...I know some of the others look more like a soft chiton.
Khaire
Giannis
Leather cuirass - Paullus Scipio - 05-14-2007
Comerus , do you know the estimated dating for those last two images of 'Black figure' vases ? And where they can be found ( i.e. the source ).They clearly show a Bell cuirass, and a white tube-and-yoke corselet,(judging by the 'pteryges') which is rare.
An accurate date would be an important piece of evidence.
Re: Leather Cuirass - MeinPanzer - 05-14-2007
Quote:Ruben,
I take your point but both linen and leather can be dyed before construction.
Can leather be dyed a convincing white using ancient methods?
Quote:Without a good closer look into those white cuirasses, we need to be careful interpreting them as a linothorax.
Some dont have shoulder flaps & while ago we have a discussion if those images were spolas something selse.
Which ones don't have shoulder flaps? On some, we don't have a clear view of the chest, so we simply can't tell.
Quote:For example Stefanos & Paul A. agree that were a bronze cuirass of this type Here, I couldn't find the originals example, but the two circuled ring at the ribs on this image Here suggest like for a leather strap & its geometric design, plus the absen of shoulder flaps, it suggest that is a bronze cuirass?
Here the other example in negative, but I notice an animal head on his chest, suggesting a piece from the shoulder flaps, like the linothorax , or its a repossed head?
The case was this kind of breastplate(Bell/Cuirass) with unusual pteriges,
but I guess this is like a Bell one with pteriges
Two more example in white: (A Bell or Bronze Age cuirass?), with pretiges & no arm flaps.
PS: I couldn't see the high neck shape that cover your throath either , exept one image with no geometrical design above.
And, unsurprisingly, not a single one of these (save for the one of the man holding a cuirass in one hand, which does look truly bizarre with those swirls) gives us a clear view of the chest. We simply can't say if these have shoulder yokes or not, so they aren't worth debating.
Re: Leather Cuirass - Giannis K. Hoplite - 05-14-2007
This vase is also Exekias's.May I dare say that it actually has shoulder flaps?It's decoration has all horizontal lines with the exception of the lines just behind Achilles's neck.It could imply that this is the separate part of the shoulder flaps.As it's already been said,we don't see the flaps clearly,Gioi,because we see the profile.To add to Dan's theory of quilted linen,could all this decoration imply stitching?I'm going way too far,I know,just a thought...
Also,remarkable the all white shield!Very rare for its time!Later,this off-white colour was used to imply bronze,especially in Apulian vases(irrelevant 8) )
Khairete
Giannis
Re: Leather Cuirass - Giannis K. Hoplite - 05-14-2007
I'm not saying I have a piece of evidence that the spolas looked like this,nor that this illustration is particularly accurate(sarissas without butt spike?),but this artist's interpretation of the spolas in interesting.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... charge.jpg
Re: Leather Cuirass - MeinPanzer - 05-14-2007
Quote:I'm not saying I have a piece of evidence that the spolas looked like this,nor that this illustration is particularly accurate(sarissas without butt spike?),but this artist's interpretation of the spolas in interesting.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... charge.jpg
There is no mention of the spolas being worn by phalangites. There is debate over an item called the kotthubos in the Amphipolis code. Some think it is a drinking cup, others a leather jerkin (based on some analogous words for jerkins, IIRC). I think that is what the artist has tried to represent here (though, as you say, much of this image is inaccurate).
Leather cuirass - Paullus Scipio - 05-14-2007
Tks Gioi -- see if you can pin it down. Someone suggested it was Exekias, which would date it to around 550-540 b.c., but the use of the white suggests a later copy of Exekias' work ( see e.g. later copies of Exekias' famous Ajax and Achilles playing 'draughts' piece).
Re: Leather Cuirass - Giannis K. Hoplite - 05-14-2007
Yes.Dead Achilles even wears the same cloak!
Re: Leather Cuirass - Magnus - 05-14-2007
Quote: Magnus thinks leather musculata are just ridiculous; I'm inclined to see leather segmentata much more in that light (not terribly relevant to us Greeks) while thinking that leather would lend itself quite well to being moulded into an image of the perfect male physique. While leather ( and here I'm including, possibly, hide/rawhide) may not be as effective as padded, layered or quilted linen for stopping arrows, it does, nonetheless have very good defensive qualities, especially in "turning" pointed and edged blades, and even more so if it has been boiled during the moulding process.
I disagree...at least for leather's defensive capabilities. If used as a solid piece it sucks. Used as lamellar, either late roman, japanese, whatever, then it works. But that technology/inovation wasn't available to the greeks at this point.
It takes a lot of work to take a piece of hide and make it into a useable piece of leather...linen was far more economical.
Re: Leather cuirass - Tarbicus - 05-14-2007
Quote:If the cuirasses were white or off-white and underwent some sort of browning process, we would expect the rest of the painting to do so, but we find lighter colours that have not been browned all around them. The other helmet is yellow (bronze) with a red and a black stripe, btw.
It doesn't necessarily follow that the cheek pieces must have been painted with the same paint as the wider wall to be white. If the effect was to be metallic that may have involved other pigments to differentiate it from the corslet, which may decay differently over time.
You have no way of being so definitive that off-white/yellowish is bronze, either. Is the opposite helm pure copper?
Re: Leather cuirass - Sean Manning - 05-15-2007
Quote:To Sean: Interesting -- I was referring to Athens, and your comment certainly opens another possibility.It was from M. L. West, Greek Lyric Poetry (Oxfords World's Classics: Oxford University Press: Oxford, 1993). An English translation of all surviving Greek lyric poetry down to 450 BCE, excluding two of the biggest poets, fits in 200 pages with short commentary....
I shall refrain from the obvious "special pleading" that so many use, and not say, can we be sure it refers to contemporary rather than heroic from one tiny fragment?Or that even so, it refers to Ionia, which may be regarded as Asiatic rather than mainland Greece.
Instead, I shall say well done, an interesting piece of evidence!
What is your source here? A modern commentary on early greek literature?
I would be most interested.
regards, Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff [/b]
I have been hard on you, Paul, but I am less certain that soft armour with the Greek cut was linen than I was before I read your earlier post. I still think the evidence (especially artistic) favors linen, but I am more aware of how little there is.