+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Roman Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Thread: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire (/showthread.php?tid=5521)
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - Gaius Julius Caesar - 04-09-2010
Would explain how they managed to get all those paving slabs so thin! :wink:
What is the dating on the relief?
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - D B Campbell - 04-09-2010
Quote:What is the dating on the relief?The author dates it to the second half of the 3rd C AD.
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - Gaius Julius Caesar - 04-09-2010
Quote:I would bet it was old technology by that time though!Gaius Julius Caesar:20nzf87e Wrote:What is the dating on the relief?The author dates it to the second half of the 3rd C AD.
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - Eleatic Guest - 04-09-2010
Quote:Have they just found the Hierapolis stele only recently? The article on it is from 2009, and I don't believe Wilson's seminal 2002 paper on ancient technology references it either. In short, is it a new find? (Sorry, I can't read the German in that article)
Yes, it is quite new and Wilson does not yet refer to it. In fact, there are now altogether three different sawmills archaeologically attested for antiquity. Plus those found in literary references. See for the state of research: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierapolis_sawmill
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - Eleatic Guest - 05-08-2010
Direct evidence of Roman cranks:
Volpert, Hans-Peter: "Eine römische Kurbelmühle aus Aschheim, Lkr. München", in: Bericht der bayerischen Bodendenkmalpflege, Vol. 38 (1997), pp. 193-199. Volpert describes the find of a large mill stone powered by a true crank handle, dated to the late 2nd century AD
Rudolf Laur-Belart: "Führer durch Augusta Raurica", 5th ed., Augst 1988, pp. 51–52, 56, fig. 42, the crank is depicted here, and is dated to no later than 250 AD
This means that, while only a decade ago the absence of the crank in Roman times was widely regarded as a given fact, the direct evidence of these two excavated specimen, plus the indirect, but no less compelling evidence of crank motion in the three archaeologically attested saw mills (plus additional literary references to such mills which are now finally taken seriously), demonstrates the diversified use of the crank by the Romans beyond any doubt. :mrgreen:
More on the early history here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crank_%28mechanism%29
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - SigniferOne - 05-13-2010
Good job on debunking myths once again. Could you explain what would be the great significance of absence of such cranks (e.g. did it mean Romans were anti-technological and pro-slave again?), as well as perhaps any examples of polemical medievalist writing putting this absence to good use? I have in mind, as examples, the articles De Notters (sp?) and Lynn White have written on Roman horses and plough technology, which were taken as gospel but now, in retrospect, are seen to be biased almost to the point of vitriol. Even now, look to what degree Lynn White is cited on the Wiki Plough page :?
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - Eleatic Guest - 05-14-2010
Quote:Good job on debunking myths once again. Could you explain what would be the great significance of absence of such cranks (e.g. did it mean Romans were anti-technological and pro-slave again?), as well as perhaps any examples of polemical medievalist writing putting this absence to good use?
In a nutshell, the crank is necessary for transmitting rotary motion into linear one (or vice versa) and as such has been a prerequisite for many, if not most mechanical automated processes of the Industrial Revolution.
Richard Lefebvre des Noëttes, a retired French officer who devoted his time to the study of ancient traction systems, was used by both Lynn White and Joseph Needham as a crown witness for the perceived technological backwardness of the ancient world exemplified in the influential (and wrong) image of ancient horses choked by Greek-Roman harnesses. At the height of White's influence, even classicists adopted his views, such as here: David W. Reece - The Technological Weakness of the Ancient World (1969)
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - Gaius Julius Caesar - 05-16-2010
Brian Stobbs was hypothesizing about the use of drop hammers used for producing helmets etc some time back. this would definitely facilitate such equipment.