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+--- Thread: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire (/showthread.php?tid=5521)
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - Eleatic Guest - 10-05-2006
1. What do we know about Roman coaches, notably their suspension system and their steering mechanism? [size=75:1pus6gk4]
There is one reconstruction in the RG Museum at Cologne, but unfortunately they did not give much details on its construction.[/size]
2. Did the Gauls really invent the barrel fastened with iron rings and did it really spread over Rome to all over the world?
3. Could someone expand on the Roman use of the lathe?
[size=75:1pus6gk4]Reconstruction from the Museum at Speyer[/size]
4. Any comments on my assertion (page before) that a certain Julius Caesar may have actually invented the first newspaper?
I know you can do it. 8)
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - conon394 - 10-06-2006
Eleatic Guest
Have you ever been to this site?
You might find it useful for your first question.
http://www.humanist.de/rome/rts/
Although in the section on Load limits they do not note-
'Heavy Transport in Classical Antiquity'
A. Burford in The Economic History Review 1960.
-Which reaches the same conclusion that the ideal of inefficient Roman or Classical harnesses for horses is incorrect.
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - Eleatic Guest - 10-09-2006
Quote:Have you ever been to this site?
http://www.humanist.de/rome/rts/
Never, but that will change quickly. :twisted:
Btw I have here in the reputable 'Woerterbuch der Antike' at p.682 a reference to "Plinius, Epist. Ad Traianum 41 (50)" about Pliny remarking on a ship lock which bridges a difference in elevation of 17 meters. However, when looking up the passage at Gutenberg I can' t find there any reference to it. Any ideas?
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - Dan Diffendale - 10-10-2006
41
C. PLINIVS TRAIANO IMPERATORI
1 Intuenti mihi et fortunae tuae et animi magnitudinem conuenientissimum uidetur demonstrari opera non minus aeternitate tua quam gloria digna, quantumque pulchritudinis tantum utilitatis habitura. 2 Est in Nicomedensium finibus amplissimus lacus. Per hunc marmora fructus ligna materiae et sumptu modico et labore usque ad uiam nauibus, inde magno labore maiore impendio uehiculis ad mare deuehuntur ... hoc opus multas manus poscit. At eae porro non desunt. Nam et in agris magna copia est hominum et maxima in civitate, certaque spes omnes libentissime aggressuros opus omnibus fructuosum. 3 Superest ut tu libratorem vel architectum si tibi videbitur mittas, qui diligenter exploret, sitne lacus altior mari, quem artifices regionis huius quadraginta cubitis altiorem esse contendunt. 4 Ego per eadem loca invenio fossam a rege percussam, sed incertum utrum ad colligendum umorem circumiacentium agrorum an ad committendum flumini lacum; est enim imperfecta. Hoc quoque dubium, intercepto rege mortalitate an desperato operis effectu. 5 Sed hoc ipso - feres enim me ambitiosum pro tua gloria - incitor et accendor, ut cupiam peragi a te quae tantum coeperant reges.
(From The Latin Library)
quadraginta cubitis, 40 cubits, that is, 40 x ca. 45 cm for the Roman cubit, gives 18 meters.
And the translation from Project Gutenberg:
Quote:To THE EMPEROR TRAJAN
WHEN I reflect upon the splendour of your exalted station, and the
magnanimity of your spirit, nothing, I am persuaded, can be more
suitable to both than to point out to you such works as are worthy
of your glorious and immortal name, as being no less useful than
magnificent. Bordering upon the territories of the city of
Nicomedia is a most extensive lake; over which marbles, fruits,
woods, and all kinds of materials, the commodities of the country,
are brought over in boats up to the high-road, at little trouble and
expense, but from thence are conveyed in carriages to the sea-side,
at a much greater charge and with great labour. To remedy this
inconvenience, many hands will be in request; but upon such an
occasion they cannot be wanting: for the country, and particularly
the city, is exceedingly populous; and one may assuredly hope that
every person will readily engage in a work which will be of
universal benefit. It only remains then to send hither, if you shall
think proper, a surveyor or an architect, in order to examine
whether the lake lies above the level of the sea; the engineers of
this province being of opinion that the former is higher by forty
cubits, I find there is in the neighbourhood of this place a large
canal, which was cut by a king of this country; but as it is left
unfinished, it is uncertain whether it was for the purpose of
draining the adjacent fields, or making a communication between
the lake and the river. It is equally doubtful too whether the death
of the king, or the despair of being able to accomplish the design,
prevented the completion of it. If this was the reason, I am so
much the more eager and warmly desirous, for the sake of your
illustrious character (and I hope you will pardon me the ambition),
that you may have the glory of executing what kings could only
attempt.
LI
Quote:TO PLINY
THERE is something in the scheme you propose of opening a
communication between the lake and the sea, which may, perhaps,
tempt me to consent. But you must first carefully examine the
situation of this body of water, what quantity it contains, and from
whence it is supplied; lest, by giving it an opening into the sea, it
should be totally drained. You may apply to Calpurnius Macer for
an engineer, and I will also send you from hence some one skilled
in works of this nature.
It seems the "Ship lock" is implied rather than explicit.
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - Eleatic Guest - 10-10-2006
Quote:It seems the "Ship lock" is implied rather than explicit.
There is another - implicit - passage: Pliny, Naturalis Historia III, 53
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - Eleatic Guest - 10-17-2006
A tremendous site on Roman engineering with lots of good articles covering a wide array of topics to download (PDF or HTML). In English and Spanish: http://traianus.rediris.es/
Btw Falsa alarma concerning the supposed pound lock:
Quote:In his official correspondence as governor of Pontus and Bithynia with the Emperor (Epist. 10.41) Pliny suggests to Trajan a canal to obviate vehicular transport between a lake in the territory of Nicomedia, lying to the east of that city, by connecting this Lacus Sunonensisl with the Propontis (fig. 1). The Emperor's reply (42) shows that he would not be deterred by the elevation of the lake even if the army technicians (libratores2 or architecti) to be obtained from Iloesia, or sent by himself from Rome (cf. 41.3), should establish a higher figure than the 40 cubits (60 feet) tentatively claimed by local talent. Trajan's one concern at the moment is the danger of draining the lake away3 by opening such a canal down to salt water. Turning to Pliny's second letter on this subject (10.61), and comparing its 2nd section with the 3rd and 4th, we see that he was weighing alternative projects:
I) He would construct a canal merely to reach the bank of a river flowing into the Sinus Astacenus, that arm of the Propontis at the east end of which lay Nicomedia. He is proposing to leave a narrow dyke between canal and river, so that the heavy freight of 41.2 (marble, farm products, firewood, timber) could be lowered or rolled down to boats on the river. He must have had in mind a slipway (diolkos, 'haul-over'), much used to overcome differences of level. If the canal was at that point parallel to the river, it could be closed by a single floodgate regulating outflow into the river lower down. This plan may have been advanced as an entering wedge, involving a minimum of time and outlay. In both respects it would be likely to commend itself to Trajan, along with other preparations for the war with Parthia then impending. It might well prove the preliminary step towards a navigable canal from the lake down to sealevel in the harbor of Nicomedia.
(II) Better still, to ignore the small river that emptied into the Bay but brought down no water from the lake, and to dig a canal for the whole distance (18 km.). That the Emperor's concern lest the lake be drained away might be relieved, Pliny makes it clear that he plans a narrow canal (fossam . . . artius pressam, 61.4); that he would completely close the natural outlet of the lake at its east end, 6 km. due west of the Sangarius, thus supplying his canal with su5cient water from the lake, thereafter flowing westward. The need of an engineer being obvious, he will write to the governor of Afoesia Inferior, the nearest commander of an army, requesting him to send a librator. In case the volume of water in the canal should prove excessive, he thought the current could easily be checked by cataractae.
SOURCE: Frank Gardner Moore: Three Canal Projects, Roman and Byzantine, in: American Journal of Archaeology, Vol. 54, No. 2. (Apr. - Jun., 1950), pp. 97- 111
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - Eleatic Guest - 10-26-2006
I am looking for evidence concerning possible Roman arch dams. An arch dam is of a convex shape, thereby transferring the water thrust to the valley sides (the other basic type are gravity dams, which resist the water pressure through their sheer mass. Practically all ancient dams were gravity dams).
Could someone check out the relevant passage at Procopius? Does he explicitly comment on the structural advantages of an arch dam?
Quote:Most interesting is, however, the dam built near Dara, Turkey. Procopius of Caesarea (AD 490-562) stated that Chryses of Alexandria, did not build this barrier in a straight line, but in the form of a crescent, in order that its arch, which was turned against the stream of the water, might be able to better resist its violence. The upper and lower parts of this barrier are pierced with apertures, so that, when the river suddenly rises in flood, it is forced to stop there and to flow no further with the entire weight of its stream, but passing in small quantities through the aperatures, it gradually diminishes in violence and power....
This statement shows that the Roman engineers understood the principle of arch dams and flood retention basins. However, recent preliminary surveys found no trace of the arch dam--only the remains of two gravity wing walls. Nevertheless, in the 70 m wide gap between the wing walls there might have been a slightly curved dam about 5 m high.
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - Eleatic Guest - 01-26-2007
A very interesting article on, you wouldn't believe it, RAILWAYS IN THE GREEK AND ROMAN WORLD [url:fu64kv97]http://www.sciencenews.gr/docs/diolkos.pdf[/url]
I was totally stupified to discover it on the web. Better download it soon.
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - Tarbicus - 01-27-2007
I've read or seen a TV documentary that claims the modern British railway gauge originated in Roman times, when wagon axles had to be a certain width. IIRC it became law due to the ruts in roads gradually becoming a certain width from the most common axle sizes, and thus to avoid accidents.
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - Eleatic Guest - 03-20-2008
Quote:A very interesting article on, you wouldn't believe it, RAILWAYS IN THE GREEK AND ROMAN WORLD [url:zgra4qk2]http://www.sciencenews.gr/docs/diolkos.pdf[/url]
I was totally stupified to discover it on the web. Better download it soon.
I used Lewis's article for Diolkos which is currently nominated for 'good article' over at aunt Wiki. Suggestions for improving the article can be made at the Talk page.
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - Eleatic Guest - 12-16-2009
The late Roman Hierapolis sawmill, one of those amazing finds which help redefine our understanding of the Roman Empire as a place of technological innovativeness: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierapolis_sawmill
[size=50:2e9wzu03]I sound like a real marketing pro, no? [/size] :mrgreen:
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - SigniferOne - 04-07-2010
Indeed, the evidence continues piling in. There is this Hierapolis sawmill, then there is the Barbegal mill waterfall, and Ausonius' machinery in Mosella. Then the oft-disregarded evidence started to be noticed of once again, such as the description in Vitruvius and Pliny's descriptions of mechanical trip-hammers operating all over Italy. Some scholars such as Lynn White have expended a great deal of vituperance and bias in making an argument for medieval ingenuity and Classical stagnation, and in his essay on medieval technology White famously noted Ausonius' description of Roman machinery only to offhandedly dismiss it as generally unimportant.
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - Eleatic Guest - 04-08-2010
Yes, that's true. Classical technological studies were for decades suffering from a great pincer movement lead by medievalists like Lynn White and sinologists like Joseph Needham, both great, but thoroughly biased scholars. But these people have long shot their bolts ( :mrgreen: ) and I like the calm and circumspect approach of the post-1980 generation of historians of ancient technology very much.
Their arguments are much more convincing than these 1950s-70s diffusionist battle cries of "<insert your favourite technological culture> has utterly superseded and anticipated the technological acheivements of <insert your least favourite technological culture> and this latter culture can call itself happy to have adopted the ground-breaking innovations of the former one, although they did so only partially and with much less sophistication."
I mean how childish was that by White and Needham? And the sad thing is both still wrote such stuff with utter conviction when they were in their 60s, 70s and even 80s - as if their age has no bearing whatsoever on their wisdom!
On the Hierapolis mill: Grewe, Klaus (2009), "Die Reliefdarstellung einer antiken Steinsägemaschine aus Hierapolis in Phrygien und ihre Bedeutung für die Technikgeschichte. Internationale Konferenz 13.?16. Juni 2007 in Istanbul", in Bachmann, Martin, Bautechnik im antiken und vorantiken Kleinasien., Byzas, 9, Istanbul: Ege Yay?nlar?/Zero Prod. Ltd., pp. 429–454, ISBN 978-975-807-223-1 (PDF, German)
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - SigniferOne - 04-09-2010
Have they just found the Hierapolis stele only recently? The article on it is from 2009, and I don't believe Wilson's seminal 2002 paper on ancient technology references it either. In short, is it a new find? (Sorry, I can't read the German in that article)
Re: Lack of technological progress in late Roman Empire - D B Campbell - 04-09-2010
Quote:Have they just found the Hierapolis stele only recently?Apparently so. The author says that "the hitherto-unrecognised relief was shown to the author during the summer 2005 excavation campaign at Hierapolis and deciphered by him for the first time". Exciting stuff.