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+--- Thread: Padded Armour (/showthread.php?tid=3698)
Re: Padded Armour - Caballo - 04-03-2006
Good question. Given that the sources are written, I'm not sure what the answer is- I suspect that no-one knows.....
Cheers
Caballo
Re: Padded Armour - Felix - 04-03-2006
Quote:A side comment. I went to the Wallace Collection to day to hear a lecture on the European arms and armour collection by David Edge. Regarding mail in Medieval times, he stated that under the mail was often worn "closely sewn" linen of 7 to 30 (!) layers to provide padding. Sadly, none has survived, but is attested by the literature.
Cheers
Caballo
This is exceedlingly significant. Do you know the literary sources for this idea? If not, can you find out? The subject has been hotly discussed in regards to the Romans and warriors into the High Middle Ages.
Re: Padded Armour - Dan Howard - 04-04-2006
Is there any evidence for arming garments being as thick as 30 layers? I was under the impression that the heavier layered garments were reserved for wearing over the top of mail (e.g. padded jacks) or as standalone armour (e.g. gambesons). I didn't think that aketons/pourpoints/arming doublets/etc were ever much thicker than a dozen layers.
Re: Padded Armour - Matthew - 04-04-2006
Dan, I was wondering what the evidence for external padded armour (worn over mail or whatever) actually consists of, other than the earlier example you gave? I haven't seen much in the way of iconographical evidence for it in the Ancient / Medieval world nor can I call to mind any written sources that suggest it, at least, prior to 1300. Was it very common, do you think?
I suspect the composition of any arming garment is mostly a matter of speculation now and probably varied a great deal anyway, depending on what resources were readily available to an individual. A range of 7-30 layers of linen is an interesting statement.
Matthew James stanham
Re: Padded Armour - tlclark - 04-04-2006
Quote:Caballo - PB:1lhrc1jg Wrote:A side comment. I went to the Wallace Collection to day to hear a lecture on the European arms and armour collection by David Edge. Regarding mail in Medieval times, he stated that under the mail was often worn "closely sewn" linen of 7 to 30 (!) layers to provide padding. Sadly, none has survived, but is attested by the literature.
Cheers
Caballo
This is exceedlingly significant. Do you know the literary sources for this idea? If not, can you find out? The subject has been hotly discussed in regards to the Romans and warriors into the High Middle Ages.
I agree, pass it on to me if you ever get it.
Travis
Re: Padded Armour - Caballo - 04-04-2006
Hi,
I've emailed David Edge, who I chatted to after the lecture - I wanted to make sure I hadn't misheard 30 (13 sounded more plausible). More info the moment I get a reply.
Cheers
Caballo
Re: Padded Armour - Nathan Ross - 04-05-2006
At the risk of sidetracking the course of this interesting debate, Luca's new thread about rectangular shields has turned up an illustration of the relief I was referring to in the first post on this one, all that time ago (!) - turns out it's from Urso/Osuna. The drawing is, I think, not too accurate, and some of the detail is missing, particularly of the diagonals on the right-hand figure's torso armour (the drawing is in reverse, incidentally, to the photo of the relief in the Osprey book), and as a result the diagonals on the 'skirt' of the figure rather resemble long slanting pterugues. The original shows this diagonal scoring right up the exposed flank of the torso, however, with a 'seam' down the side beneath the arm where the diagonals meet in a V before running up the back. Some odd detail around the neck and sleeve as well. The other figure is clarly wearing mail, but I do not believe these diagonal lines represent scale armour - could be some sort of Spanish corselet-type thing, but it certainly looks to me like a quilted garment of some description...
![[Image: ad_1_i0005c5.gif]](http://www.arsdimicandi.net/ad_1_i0005c5.gif)
The original is, as in Luca's post, here
- Nathan
Re: Padded Armour - Caballo - 04-05-2006
I know very little about medieval arming jacks, but a quick google produced an arming jack made using up to 30 layers of linen at http://www.matuls.pl/english/arming.html (scroll down to bottom of page)
together with a picture. Any medievalist out there who can help re authenticity?
Cheers
Caballo
Re: Padded Armour - Dan Howard - 04-06-2006
They don't have a 30 layer arming garment. The only 30 layer item is the Jack at the bottom of that page, which is not meant to be worn under armour. It is intended to be worn over mail or by itself as standalone armour.
Re: Padded Armour - Arne Joakim - 04-06-2006
The King's mirror, written in Norway ca 1250 mentions textile armour worn both under and over the hauberk.
The word origianally used for gambison in this text is panzera, but the terms for textile armour in norse language is definitly not standardidized.
Quote:Above and next to the body he should Wear a soft gambison, which need not come lower than to the middle of, the thigh. Over this he must have a strong breastplate made of good iron covering the body from the nipples to the trousers belt; outside this, a well-made hauberk and over the hauberk a firm gambison made in the manner which I have already described but without sleeves.
Arne Joakim
Re: Padded Armour - Dan Howard - 04-06-2006
Doesn't look like a good translation. The first instance of "gambeson" should probably read "aketon" since it is worn under the armour. Breastplates don't come into use for another century so perhaps a Coat of Plates is intended here. Or maybe the laminis ferreis arte consutis mentioned by Gerald of Wales (who described the Danish attack on Wales in 1171).
Re: Padded Armour - tlclark - 04-07-2006
Dan,
Is term here you translate as aketon always used for an over garment? Medieval sources aren't nearly as strict in their terms as we are.
I've been chasing down a highly idiosyncratic used of 'skiagraphia' which has a fairly solid usage in Classical greek, but has a far more diverse meaning in the Koine and Middle Greek.
Not certain, just asking.
Travis
Re: Padded Armour - Dan Howard - 04-07-2006
English Assize lists are clear that the gambeson was intended to be worn instead of mail. It definitely isn't meant to be worn under armour. Gambesons were occasionally layered over mail as an additional layer of armour. Padded jacks were used the same way later on.
Aketons/haquetons/etc are more often listed as accessories to metal armour, so it is probably better to use this term to describe what was worn underneath. "Pourpoint" or simply "arming doublet" would also be acceptable. It depends on the time period.
Re: Padded Armour - Arne Joakim - 04-07-2006
Well, here is a better translation, but it is in Norwegian.:
Quote:Oventil må han nærmest kroppen ha et mykt panser som ikke rekker lengre ned enn midt på låret; deretter en god brystskjerm av jern som skal nå fra brystvortene til brokbeltet, over den en god brynje og utapå brynja et godt panser, laget på samme måte som før sagt, men da ermeløst
The word "panzera" describes roughly the same as "gambeson", a thick garment worn over or instead of mail, but in this text it also discribes a garment worn under the hauberk. The breastplate in the text is a coat of plates, but the word breastplate siuts better with the orignal text.
Here is another norse text mentoning textile armour:
Quote:Ein skutilsvæin hver scal eiga alla & fulla herneskÃu. tat e fyzt spalldener eda vapntreiu, brynkollo, hialm eda stalhufu, sværd & spiot, skiold vrugan (?) oc plato, all til tokr, er & bucklare oc eigi sidar annat hvart handboge eda lasboge
This time, no bad translations :wink:
AJ
De Rebus Bellicis - Eleatic Guest - 04-20-2006
Hello,
on page 3 there was frequent mentioning of De Rebus Bellicis. I am interested in the whole text, especially the passage where he proposes the use of oxen-driven paddlewheel boats.
However, I couldnt find the text online, perhaps somebody can give me a hint?
Thanks in advance