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Roman Military Clothing (3) - Printable Version

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BOOK - Graham Sumner - 04-13-2007

Quote:I will be buying it as soon as possible no matter what the publisher puts on the cover

I feel a RAT cover competition coming on! Big Grin

Graham.

Re: ARTWORK - Theodosius the Great - 04-13-2007

Quote:Hello Jaime

Raffaele and I will try and send you as much as we can on the helmets and boots for the figures you have expressed interest in. We are both however desperately trying to finish off our latest book for next month!

Best wishes
Graham.

Graham, I didn't realize you were in a mad rush to complete your new book. I'd like to pre-order it ASAP Big Grin

My thanks to both you and Mr. D'Amato for offering me any material you may send at your earliest convenience.

~Theo

Re: Roman Military Clothing (3) - Ironhand - 04-21-2007

I loved the book. The variety of design was astounding and I've never seen such colorful images in any depiction before the Renaissance. I could spend a long time singing its praises. Graham did an excellent job with his artistry. My only gripe is that there are a few too many depictions of officers and guardsmen and not enough of typical soldiers. It also leaves a lot of questions about regional style vs. common use and the patterns of styles spreading which wasn't answered in the preceeding text. Its wealth of information definately led to far more questions than it answered and I don't think a lot of them probably will. Great book and it left me with a lot of thinking and probably a lot of commision work for artisans to make stuff for me.

Derek D. Estabrook

Re: Roman Military Clothing (3) - Ironhand - 04-29-2007

I revise my review and add that my only major complaint was that I wish it could have been 400 pages. Big Grin Its a great book.

BOOK - Graham Sumner - 05-02-2007

Quote:Probably at least six months from completion. The publishers are Greenhills.


That should of course be... at least six months from when we hand them the material, which will be this week-end!

Thanks for the comments Derek. I hope you will like the new book too, it will be much bigger than the Osprey's.

Graham

Re: Roman Military Clothing (3) - Robert Vermaat - 05-02-2007

Be sure to tell us Graham, we wants it, we wants it badddddly!

Re: Roman Military Clothing (3) - Ironhand - 05-03-2007

It will definately be on my list.

Flavius Aetius - Claudius Hinricus - 07-04-2007

Hi all,
I have a question to A1

A1 shows Flavius Aetius. The drawing is from a ebony relief showing a man, a woman and a child. There are different descriptions for this relief:
1. the relief shows Aetius, the emperor Valentinian III as child und his mother
2. the relief shows Stilicho with his wife and son

IMHO no. 2 is the right one. Is this a error in interpretation?

Regards,

Re: Roman Military Clothing (3) - Robert Vermaat - 07-04-2007

I'm with you, that dyptych shows Stilicho, his wife and their son.

[Image: IMG_0457.JPG]

Re: Roman Military Clothing (3) - Graham Sumner - 07-05-2007

Robert wrote:

Quote:I'm with you, that dyptych shows Stilicho, his wife and their son.

Why? Because......
A) It says so in every book the image is shown in.
B) It has Stilicho's name written on the back.
C) What other late Roman general had a wife and kid?
D) Any other reason?

I have always gone along with (A) myself but a leading expert told me there was recently some doubt over who it was and it was now questioned that it was Stilicho. In any case I have passed on the question to Raffaele who will get back on this.
Graham.

Aetius/Stilicho - MARCENTIUS - 07-05-2007

Dear all,
I am going out from the hidden corner where I am integrating the Greenhill book with the new spectacular finds from Romania just to answer to the questions.
I decided to reconstruct Aetius in the book basing upon the source at my disposal. The problem of the interpretation of the Dyptich as Stilicho or Aetius is a old topic, already dealt from Delbrueck in his work upon the Late-Roman ivory Dyptich. We have to consider that both Aetius and Stilicho were Magistri Utriusque Militiae and that both of them had son and wife.
Hottenroth, in his work on the history of the costume, recontructed two times the Magister Militum. Because one thing is sure: that he is a Magister Militum.
In the first reconstruction he realised Stilicho, in the second Aetius. Aetius was done unbearded. Why?
Hottenroth mentioned two dyptich. But especially an other circumstance was attractive. The so called sarcophagus of Stilicho, in the Basilica of Saint Ambrogio in Milano, was in reality the sarcophagus of a later Magister Militum, that some scholars interpreted like Aetius. He is represented more times on the sarcophagus: in scale armour with his wife (the hairstyle is sligtly later than "Serena" on the Monza Dyptich) and hairs cut in military style, and then as triumphant Cristus on the sides.
So, if this General was Aetius, Aetius was unbearded.
Hottenroth reconstructions had a very important element: he based it upon the traces of colours still present on the monument. And infact what we have? Gold and purple, exactly waht we could espect from a Magister Militum.
In the complex, so, we had copied the figure of Aetius from Hottenroth, using the survived Dyptich for the detail of the Costume. A costume of a Magister Militum.
Head, face, hair-dress, hair colour have been copied from Hottenroth. because the portrait was taken by Hottenroth from the sarcophagus in Milan. There, if you had the chance to go, You will note the typical late-Imperial style locks arranged over the front. At the time we have imagined the reconstruction Aetius was not very old, but aged man (more than 56 years). Aetius is described by Renatus Frigeridus as a man of middle build, resolute, discreet in the aspect, without physical defects and of correct weight, strong in the physique.

The Chlamis-paludamentum in dark purple, violet, was most probably a tapestry-darned pattern, and has got - inside and outside - a design of circles filled with human busts (ex Stilicho diptich). The cloak was fastened on the right shoulder by a crossbow fibula, which was similar to a specimen ex Torino. I did not give to Graham to copy a fibula like that of the Dyptich of Monza, but a later one, entirely of gold and of the length of 7,2 cm. It was originally gems covered, red and green.

Tunic : the long sleeved tunic, richly embroidered, was decorated with a pattern having similar circles as the cloak, but, in addition, arcades filled with full-length human figures. The tunic was white, according to Hottenroth but especially according to the sources, and the arcades, figures and circles thread gilded. On the right shoulder, he wears a squared application highly embroidered (tabula). Other 2 tabulae of the same shape and decoration were on the tights. The edges of the dress and the segmenta of the cuffs are svastikas decorated with gold thread; we have found a specimen from Egypt completely identical.

Cingulum :the detail was from Monza Diptich and gold plated ; very rich decorated belt of gold flanked plaques composed from two straps : a waist belt, and a belt for the sword.

Spatha : the blue sheath is covered by rectangular and rhomboidal precious stones ; the red balteus is worn in sassanian style, as belt sword and not in a Roman way. It is covered by gems, inserted in cloisonné, probably following the prescription of Cod. Just. XI, 12i “on the sword-belt adapt and insert pearls, emeralds and zirconsâ€

Re: Aetius/Stilicho - Robert Vermaat - 07-08-2007

I bet Marcentius is in reality Raffaele d'Amato... Big Grin

Raffaele, could you please add your name to your signature? It's a forum rule, you know?

Quote: I am going out from the hidden corner where I am integrating the Greenhill book with the new spectacular finds from Romania just to answer to the questions.
Are you? That's great!! We really want to read that book! Any idea when it's up for publishing? Confusedhock:

Quote:The problem of the interpretation of the Dyptich as Stilicho or Aetius is a old topic, already dealt from Delbrueck in his work upon the Late-Roman ivory Dyptich. We have to consider that both Aetius and Stilicho were Magistri Utriusque Militiae and that both of them had son and wife.
Is there information available when, for the first time, this dyptich was ascribed to Stilicho? For Graham is right, in (almost) every book that I come across this dyptich is describes as depicting Stilicho & family.

Quote:Hottenroth mentioned two dyptich.
In your opinion, were there really two of them, or did Hottenroth use a source that had duplicated this one, and created a non-existing double?

Quote:But especially an other circumstance was attractive. The so called sarcophagus of Stilicho, in the Basilica of Saint Ambrogio in Milano, was in reality the sarcophagus of a later Magister Militum, that some scholars interpreted like Aetius. He is represented more times on the sarcophagus: in scale armour with his wife (the hairstyle is sligtly later than "Serena" on the Monza Dyptich) and hairs cut in military style, and then as triumphant Cristus on the sides.
So, if this General was Aetius, Aetius was unbearded.

OK, so we have another monument that's ascribed to Stilicho, but without proof too. So, why is there doubt about this one being Aetius? can't they both belong to Stilicho? Or can both be Aetius? I mean, the dyptich is likely to celebrate probably a consulate (of which Aetius had no less than four!), and the sarcophagus is of course later than the dyptich, in both cases (except when it's Aetius' dyptich and Stilicho's sarcophagus after all!). But if the hairstyle of the woman (calling her 'Serena' would be rather presumptious?) is only 'slightly' later, cannot she be the same woman as on ther dyptich? I mean, Aetius died two generations after Stilicho, so his wife's hairstyle might be more different than 'slightly' later?

So, both the dyptich and the sarcophagus could have belonged to the same man, either Stilicho or Aetius. So why the choices that are made? Are we not falling for the image? Stilicho, as a 'Vandal', we assume to be bearded, while Aetius, as a 'Roman', should be neatly clean-shaven? :wink:

But if that's how the minds of the commentators worked in the past, truth be told that's all nonsense. Stilicho was as Roman as every man at court, whilst Aetius lived for a considerable time amongst the Huns!

Quote:Hottenroth reconstructions had a very important element: he based it upon the traces of colours still present on the monument. And infact what we have? Gold and purple, exactly waht we could espect from a Magister Militum.
Which does not help us one bit, because both men held that rank.

Please, can you mail me any pictures/drawings of that sarcophagus? I've heard of it before, but never have any pictures been published! (fectio AT hotmail DOT com). Thanks!

Re: Roman Military Clothing (3) - jho - 07-11-2007

There are lots of pictures of the sarcophagus on wikimedia:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Categ ... _Stilicone

I am not very good at computers so if the link doesn't work just go to wikimedia and search for "Sant' ambrogio" in Milan. You will be a little disappointed to find that the scal armor appears to consist of three or four scales visible on the right shoulder in the tondo on the center of the lid (first picture)

Regards,

Jens

Re: Roman Military Clothing (3) - Robert Vermaat - 07-11-2007

Hi Jens,

Thanks! I did not know the correct name so I never managed to find these. Much appreciated!

The description says:
"The so-called "Sarcofago di Stilicone" ("Stilicho's sarcophagus") is an Ancient Roman paleochristian sarcophagus dating from around 385 AD, sculpted for a high-rank military authority and his wife."

That would make it too early for Stilicho, and FAR too early for Aetius!

Tunic - Graham Sumner - 07-11-2007

Hi Robert

Raffaele wrote:
Quote:The edges of the dress and the segmenta of the cuffs are swastikas decorated with gold thread; we have found a specimen from Egypt completely identical.

I should add that the find was a picture in a book, not that we went off into the desert and dug it up ourselves, although finding things in books can often be just as hard!

It was pleasing to note however that when I looked closely at the image of the clavi on 'Stilicho' I spotted that the interlaced swastika design was there as well and that did not appear in any previous reconstruction that I had seen.
Graham.