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+--- Thread: A New Helmet (/showthread.php?tid=24661)
A New Helmet - Sextus Saturninus - 01-25-2015
Hello everyone!
I have finally decided that I must get more authentic. My impression is of an auxiliary miles on Hadrian's wall in 136 AD. I currently have one of Windlass's "Imperial Italic G" helmets that is not as authentic as I would like. I want to go from not-that-authentic to being as authentic as possible. So far I have bought a really nice pugio, acquired a new gladius, and I am going to replace by belt apron. I decided my helmet was not authentic enough so I needed a new one and I looked around. AER seemed like the place to go. Here are two AER models that really looked good:
The AER Gallic H helmet made of tinned steel with brass decoration and red enamel on the AER website for $224
The AER Italic A helmet made of tinned steel on the AER website for $168
I am leaning towards getting the Gallic H right now. The Gallic H seems so cool because it got to be in the same case with the original helmet in the museum. How cool is that! It must be really authentic to get that privilege... I also like it because it is very different from the Gallic H helmet produced by Deepeeka and I like being the person with the equipment that not everyone else uses. But the Italic A is also really authentic too and it is a design I like... Though I have no idea on which one could be around in the second century.
I am just 12, and I am no expert on Roman gear, so I need some help deciding. Can you guys help me?
Thanks in advance,
Jason
A New Helmet - caiusbeerquitius - 01-25-2015
Both helmets do not fit the time you want to display. The Gallic H is probably from before 16 AD, the Italic A is before 79 AD.
A New Helmet - Sextus Saturninus - 01-25-2015
Wow. I did not realize the Gallic H was so early. Our group allows it, so I thought it would fit... Are there any helmets that fit the time period that are not only available in the Deepeeka model but are less than $500?
Also, couldn't helmets be used far after they were deposited? I have heard of some helmets being deposited in periods where the helmet would be fifty or a hundred years, so could it be possible that at least the Italic A could survive?
A New Helmet - caiusbeerquitius - 01-25-2015
Yes, but as it was probably not a Legionary helmet, but rather a fleet helmet, and as it is not within the range of helmets found along hadrian´s wall it is not meant for you, I guess. Maybe one of the Italic D s or the Italic G from Hebron (deepeeka) fit chronologically better.
A New Helmet - Sextus Saturninus - 01-25-2015
Any others besides those two? They were some of the models I was trying to avoid because it seems that all second century re-enactors have that one along with the Gallic G. Are we sure that the Gallic H could never possibly be used into the later first century and that style's use stopped immediately at 16AD? It looks similar to the Gallic G, which is later, so could it survive later than a Flavian period?
A New Helmet - Gaius Colletti - 01-25-2015
16 AD? Is that a typo? The Galkic H falls right into progression of the mid century Gallic line, especially with the ear guards
A New Helmet - caiusbeerquitius - 01-25-2015
No Typo. Forget that old chronology.
A New Helmet - ANTONIVS MAGNVS - 01-25-2015
Quote:No Typo. Forget that old chronology.
Really? Can you elaborate please?
A New Helmet - M.VAL.BRUTUS - 01-25-2015
Jason you can also look to this helmet:
https://www.armamentaria.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_6&products_id=99
It's a good helmet, made by DSC. Perfectly alright for our time period. I have a Gallic J, which would be getting towards the end of it's life span by our time period.
There is also this:
https://www.armamentaria.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_4&products_id=134
This is the Carnutum helmet, it's says Auxilliary Infantry, but I'm not sure what the context of the find is, or that we can say for sure if a helmet is meant solely for Auxilliaries or not. I'm not sure about dating on the helmet, so if you like this one, you should check on that. Generally you want a helmet that dates to within 25-50 years of the time period you are doing.
And neither of these two helmet are currently in use by anyone in Leg VI. Personally I think the Theilenhofen helmet is the better of the two options. but it's ultimately your choice.
A New Helmet - Youngster - 01-25-2015
Quote:I am just 12, and I am no expert on Roman gear, so I need some help deciding. Can you guys help me?
Jason
Did I read that right? Are you 12 years old? If so, you might want to hold off on a helmet, at least until you are done growing.
A New Helmet - Sextus Saturninus - 01-25-2015
Thanks for the suggestions Brutus; they are helpful. I myself would go for the all-brass helmet. I like shiny brass
mile: . I might get that one but I have still seen no proof that the Gallic H could not be around at the time so it is still an option. The Gallic H looks cool 8-) And yes, I am 12.
A New Helmet - caiusbeerquitius - 01-25-2015
Quote:Jason you can also look to this helmet:
www.armamentaria.com/store/index.php?mai...h=1_6&products_id=99
The info on this site is not so correct, as I have pointed out in an other thread here a while ago. The helmet, according to the excavators and also in regard of the archaeological publication, was deposited by a unit which was stationed there in 189 AD. The helmet was very probably deposited towards the end of the occupation of that site, in the 230ies or even 260ies. Also the original had, as stated in the report, a brow guard of the Niederbieber-type (sheet metal), not one like on that reproduction.
See here:
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/16-marketplace/153011-theilenhofen-helmet-anyone-now-available.html?start=105#212026
and here.
Jay: The Robinson helmet chronology is faulty. Look at eye the Oberaden helmet. It is from 9 AD latest.
Probably the Carnuntum helmet might be your best choice then.
A New Helmet - A_Volpe - 01-25-2015
Although it's mid first century, the info on Leg XX's page is excellent, also make sure to look over the "Avoid" page.
www.larp.com/legioxx
If your group has a set of standards and approved gear, I say go with that, but if you come across information and more research
that points to another type of helmet you can use instead, go with what you feel has the best supportive evidence.
good luck.
In regards to Caiusbeerquitius, With all do respect, IMHO, I have a really hard time accepting exact dates for when particular helmets came into use, replaced others, and/or were deemed "obsolete", etc. I think there is a lot of gray-area in gear coming into use gradually, and then fading out of use with the constant changing fashions the Romans were going on.
When someone hands me the surviving record(s) that say "In the 3rd year of Emperor X's reign our Legion acquired the New Style Helmet, replacing the Old Style Helmet" or something like that, then I'll change my mind.
Problem is, nothing I have ever read indicates the Romans had any kind of tradition of such a detailed record with mentions of specific gear, especially in the 1st Century. That whole concept seems only from the last 200-300 years - fairly modern times -
The only thing I'm aware of that comes anywhere close to what we would consider as some kind of "record" of gear is the Nottia Dignitatum, which doesn't show up until the 5th century AD, heck, we don't even have an exact date for when that was supposed to have been 'published', let alone the problem, with the myriad of medieval copies. Even in modern context, what the Regulations detail in what a military unit is "supposed to" have hardly ever matches up with reality, with all of the complications of supply/demand/production times and even production quality and standards.
IF it's "true" that when new Legions were formed in the later 1st century edging into the 2nd century, that a whole outfit of shiny new gear was [commissioned] manufactured to outfit that unit - That still doesn't mean slightly older gear was substituted; and doesn't tell us if/when even newer gear replaced the first-issued gear.
But that is of course, my interpretation of what's available, which is pretty scant to say the least.
A New Helmet - caiusbeerquitius - 01-26-2015
Andy, you are arguing against something I never said. I was talking about the dating of specific single (!) helmets. The dating for the two Theilenhofen helmets is quite clear from archaeological context. I pretty much agree with what you say, apart from what you say about the NDH, which is not showing anything to a level that can be reconstructed. The problem with the myriad of copies has been solved, in that regard, the version closest to the original is "Munich II" which can be seen here for free: http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/bsb00005863/images/index.html?fip=193.174.98.30&seite=345&pdfseitex=
in that regard e.g. the rhine area tombstones, like many others, are much more "realistic" and useful.
A New Helmet - Flavivs Aetivs - 01-26-2015
Theilenhofen dates to 181 AD, IIRC, meaning it was probably in use around 150-ish.