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+--- Thread: Armor of the Divine Triad : lamellar armor (/showthread.php?tid=22409)
Armor of the Divine Triad : lamellar armor - daryush - 04-15-2013
FYI: With 8-hole lamellae, you would either need to bend the plates around the shoulder, or to leave the vertical weave loose so that the plates could articulate around the shoulder. It looks like the Amanthus lamellae would also need bending due to the overlap. The lacing pattern and hole config looks similar to the Old Nisa / Toglok Tappeh lamellae, which don't have quite as much overlap and so wouldn't need bending over the shoulder (although I didn't make my set with that lacing pattern - I am tempted to re-do it, as it looks prettier and also perhaps more stable!)
Having said that, I'm with Edouard as well, although I would perhaps use plates from a different find, albeit of a related type and probably assembled in a similar manner.
Armor of the Divine Triad : lamellar armor - koechlyruestow - 04-16-2013
But WHAT different find? I only know the lamellae from Cyprus, and a few derelict separate lamellae from Assyrian provenance, I wish I knew more examples. Do you?
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Armor of the Divine Triad : lamellar armor - daryush - 04-16-2013
Well, I would be more inclined to use Toglok Tappeh / Old Nisa.
Armor of the Divine Triad : lamellar armor - koechlyruestow - 04-16-2013
Daryush,
Here I go again. Do you know a publication treating these lamellae from Toglok Tappeh?
Armor of the Divine Triad : lamellar armor - Jori - 04-16-2013
My main issue with the Cyprus finds are their age. 7 centuries before the Divine Triad from Palmyra!
This is far too much time to get inspired from it. Even more if it's a prestigious armour. Would they use such an antiquity?
The only real archaeological finds that I know of that could be first century are all scales, or "semi scale".
Ok, it looks like in the divine triad, the scales are laced. But in some found scales, the linen is still visible. Because it was the support of it, but can we imagine that it could have another function beyond the support? I was thinking about friction between the plates, about space between the plates (for flexibility) or simply for the looks of it? The rounded part of the scale would be here to prevent the scale to rip off the textile.
My purpose here is to make an armour that a fantassin of the Ist century AD could use in combat. So this in my opinion exclude not having the reinforced shoulders. I saw the thread about the musculata shoulders. My conclusion : someone wearing a musculata is almost always a cavalryman, not subject to take a hit from above like a fantassin.
If not suitable for a simple legionary, I can give up already
A locked scale armour will be just fine also.
Armor of the Divine Triad : lamellar armor - Dan Howard - 04-16-2013
Don't give up Jori. I'd love to see what you come up with.
Armor of the Divine Triad : lamellar armor - koechlyruestow - 04-16-2013
Jori, that is the problem with the interpretation of art and archaeology in Asia, especially in the Middle East. Pieces of equipment disappear for centuries from the record. When they reappear, they are then attributed to European influence, because European art and archaeology shows a much more complete record. When Levantine lamellar reappears, you understandebly look for a contemporary Roman example. When round pectorals reappear on Sasanian royal armour, almost a thousand years after they were represented on Assyrian palace reliefs, Bivar and Speidel naturally assume a Roman example. And so on, and so forth. Because of the relative abundance of European art and archaeology, everything in Asia is seen from a European, and as I see it distorted, perspective.
Armor of the Divine Triad : lamellar armor - Gaius Julius Caesar - 04-16-2013
Quote:What do you think this is?
Do you think the thing we see on Severius Acceptus stele on the right is a lamellar armour?
![[Image: stele-for-severius-acceptus-roman-era-is...m-2011.jpg]](http://monetalis.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/stele-for-severius-acceptus-roman-era-istanbul-archaeology-museum-2011.jpg)
While all the discussion of the lamallar is fascinating and informative, and the talent displayed is admirable, I still see more relation to this than to any armour. (not the mug of coffee...)
[attachment=6977]484818_10151385956267911_944126990_n_2013-04-16.jpg[/attachment]
Armor of the Divine Triad : lamellar armor - Jori - 04-16-2013
What I don't understand in this, is why bother to sculpt the helmet, the greaves, the shield, the belt and gladius, and not the armour? The subarmalis seems to me a minor piece of the equipment.
Ancients had different mentalities, but in this, they would represent what would be seen by all, not a subarmalis.
Maybe I'm wrong of course, and the shape of the helmet, not really in use by the time of Severius Acceptus, makes me think that this stele is just an evocative way of depicting this centurion.
We could debate on this for ages, we'll never know what is this thing on the right.
A friend alerted me for this in the crypt of the "Abbazia di San Domenico Abate a Sora", Italy :
![[Image: centurio-sora.jpg]](http://static-media.com/rome/lamellaire/centurio-sora.jpg)
It's stone reemployed for the construction of the church. Look at the belt.
Armor of the Divine Triad : lamellar armor - Gaius Julius Caesar - 04-16-2013
Yes, but again, I would think this was a padded garment also.
I understand there are references to them wearing only a padded garment....
at least I have seen it mentioned many times.
Perhaps the undergarment is unusual in its design,
and was painted to reflect some rank distinction?
Is that belt not the tribune rank knot? As seen tied around some musculata?
Armor of the Divine Triad : lamellar armor - Jori - 04-16-2013
An hercules knot, maybe? It seems so, so the armor/subarmalis seen here is probably of a very high rank officer. Would he wear it above a subarmalis? Or best sayed, a thoracomachus? I don't know much about it.
Armor of the Divine Triad : lamellar armor - daryush - 04-16-2013
Quote:Jori, that is the problem with the interpretation of art and archaeology in Asia, especially in the Middle East. Pieces of equipment disappear for centuries from the record. When they reappear, they are then attributed to European influence, because European art and archaeology shows a much more complete record. When Levantine lamellar reappears, you understandebly look for a contemporary Roman example. When round pectorals reappear on Sasanian royal armour, almost a thousand years after they were represented on Assyrian palace reliefs, Bivar and Speidel naturally assume a Roman example. And so on, and so forth. Because of the relative abundance of European art and archaeology, everything in Asia is seen from a European, and as I see it distorted, perspective.
Nikonorov has assumed a Saka origin (ultimately from the Near East though) for the round apezats in Sasanian iconography. They are not so much a component of armour as they are of jewellery IMHO. They were used until modern times in Central Asia and have been found on at least one (that I know of) 16th - 18th C Tibetan lamellar suit.
Anyhow, I digress :mrgreen:
Otherwise whole-heartedly agree.
Armor of the Divine Triad : lamellar armor - koechlyruestow - 04-17-2013
Pectorals are also shown in Indian art from the Sanchi stupa (1st century BCE) onwards and may have been mentioned in Vedic texts with a much older oral origin, first of all as actual armour, only in the 5th century CE they also appear as additions to armour vests, probably inspired by the Sasanian use of the pectoral. This later combination would be used not only in Tibet but also in Bhutan up to the 20th century (see D.J. LaRocca Warriors of the Himalaya)