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Scale Armor & Accuracy - Printable Version

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Scale Armor & Accuracy - markusaurelius - 03-11-2012

Being in the process of making some scale armor, it dawned on me that almost all the other Re-enactment scale armor being sold commercially or made otherwise doesn't seem to follow the style of any of the originals. Why is that? Are the reproductions simply following a later(medieval) style of scale armor in error? Or following iconographic images only? Or referring to examples that a museum has simply strung together in error?

The originals all have the scales staggered/overlapped only enough to hide the thread attachment holes and NOT the side connecting rings.

Most reconstructions cover both the thread holes and side rings (generalizing)

[attachment=3336]example.jpg[/attachment]

one reproduction with the rings showing

[attachment=3342]repo1.jpg[/attachment]


Originals still preserved with the backing, the side rings are all showing.

[attachment=3337]Vindonissa.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=3338]MuseumCarnuntinumAustria.JPG[/attachment]

[attachment=3339]museumofstremi2.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=3340]Durascale.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=3341]Strasbourg.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=3343]carpow.jpg[/attachment]


Re: Scale Armor & Accuracy - jvrjenivs - 03-11-2012

I think it's mostly because almost all commercially available shirts were designed after the one Adrian Wink (Peroni) once made (don't know where he got inspiration from. I think it's a re-enactorism.

Well, my piece of horse armour has the wireconnections visible Big Grin
[Image: clibinarius2.jpg]


Re: Scale Armor & Accuracy - markusaurelius - 03-11-2012

re-enactorism: a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy? Kind of like the infamous trooper helmet Big Grin


Re: Scale Armor & Accuracy - Byzan - 03-11-2012

I am currently working on a squamata as well, after the example of Adrian Wink, He send me a PDF file with how-to instructions.
His instructions made sure all scales lapsed over each other.

as you can see in the attached picture.


Re: Scale Armor & Accuracy - markusaurelius - 03-11-2012

Well I guess my argument is that if one wants to copy the originals, they shouldn't overlap the side rings as Adrian has suggested. Multiple squamata examples from multiple periods in the Roman empire all did not overlap the scales side rings. Only the the thread holes at the top were covered.


Re: Scale Armor & Accuracy - Byzan - 03-11-2012

Now my question would be, why would you not cover them up, as this should cause the hamata to be less 'strong' as it would be when they do overlap. and they were more than advanced enough to have tried or investigated both options.

I am almost at the step where I can sew them onto the cloth... Which method to pick...

Idears?


Re: Scale Armor & Accuracy - jvrjenivs - 03-11-2012

As all Indian examples show them with the wire covered, best go for the less overlapped option. Wink Just to make your piece more unique. Note that this way there is still much enough overlap to get as good a protection, but less scales are needed.


Re: Scale Armor & Accuracy - markusaurelius - 03-11-2012

Well they do overlap, just not over the side rings. In terms of which makes better armor, I guess a few hundred years of testing by the Romans seems to indicate that having the rings exposed doesn't drastically change the protection ability. As an added bonus you have to use less scales, which when bronze literally was "money" it certainly was an added bonus.

If your goal is to make a copy of Roman squamata, then the evidence indicates that the rings were exposed, and not covered up like all of the Indian examples. Just make sure that the threaded holes are covered and not exposed. What you'll find is that the scales still significantly overlap in order to cover the attaching thread. My guess is that this method might also allow more flexibility as well.

[attachment=3347]scale.jpg[/attachment]


And down the road if someone asks why the rings are exposed, just tell its cause that's how the Romans did it Smile


Re: Scale Armor & Accuracy - caiusbeerquitius - 03-11-2012

Also makes the armor significantly lighter...


Re: Scale Armor & Accuracy - Gaius Julius Caesar - 03-11-2012

I have noticed this in the recent past!
Perhaps the images available of the dished scales were not good enough at the time to show the wires?
I know it took me a minute to spot them on the ones posted
Above, even after the information that they were there!
The flat scales have always been pretty obvious though to be fair!


Re: Scale Armor & Accuracy - Crispvs - 03-12-2012

Hmmm - I wish I had noticed that before I made mine last year. Cry
Thanks for pointing it out!

I also used Peronis' description of how he made his as a guide as I was making mine. He normally checks thing thoroughly so that probably made me a bit more relaxed than usual.

Crispvs


Re: Scale Armor & Accuracy - Gaius Julius Caesar - 03-12-2012

Thats odd, because I was sure yours had the exposed wires... :-? :roll:


Scale Armor & Accuracy - markusaurelius - 10-07-2012

Found some great Duras Europos scale armor images, which further shows that the scales had the links exposes. Also of interesting note is the edging stitching. Not done with a simple thread (like all the repos), but thick leather throngs interwoven. Exactly like the Carpow scale armor example at the opposite end of the Empire. Kind of amazing that the construction is so similar across the empire. I found it interesting that the 5th Century Spangenhelm with the stitched edging cheek pieces, has the exact same interwoven leather stitching.


[attachment=5366]DuraEuropos-bronzescale.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=5367]DuraEuropos-bronzescale-2.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=5368]Duras-Europos-Leatheredging.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=5369]Duras-Europos-Leatheredging-4.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=5370]Duras-Europos-Leatheredging-2.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=5371]Duras-Europos-Leatheredging-3.jpg[/attachment]


Scale Armor & Accuracy - Gaius Julius Caesar - 10-07-2012

Which images are of the Carpow finds? I seem to come to a web block when ever I search for info on this location?

BTW, I doubt this method makes them more flexible. However, I imagine it makes a more secure covering, as the indian scale seems to open up quite easily, which was always my originl reason
for disliking scales over plate armour. Or perhaps I am getting mixed up with what some people have
termed ridgid scale? Confusedmile:

I am curious, does this apply to every known hole pattern?


Scale Armor & Accuracy - john m roberts - 10-07-2012

I am curious about that leather edge binding. I can't quite make out how it was done. Has anyone done a reconstruction that makes it clear?