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A new project: Build a Roman town, for real! - pavka - 06-08-2011
Hi all,
I am a new member of this forum and would like to present myself, and an idea I have.
My name is Pavel, I am originally from Bulgaria and now have lived in Australia for around 10 years. In Bulgaria, I grew up in what is probably the best preserved Roman town, now called Hisar (the Turkish word for "fortress") due to the fact that most of the 2.5 km fortress around it is still there. It used to be called Diocletianopolis and Augusta when it was Roman, and several emperors spent time there (e.g. Septimius Severus) because it was a major resort, with more than 20 hot mineral springs.
Anyway, what has always bugged me about it is this: out of this 2.5 km of wall, not a single meter is in "original" condition. The local council spends money to "preserve" it, but that just involves patching it up here and there, not restoring anything as it was. There are the foundations of many buildings just lying around everywhere - a perfect specimen of a Roman villa, army barracks (multiple-storey, unknown how many), amphitheatre, baths, private houses with central heating (through ceramic pipes in the walls, carrying hot water from the mineral springs, some of which are 70C), some of the earliest Christian churches in Europe (III century) etc. That's all sitting on top of earlier Thracian stuff, still visible here and there (part of the fortress is built from enormous stones not typical for Romans, the wall is built on top of, and going across, the foundations of an earlier tower etc.). And that's sitting on top of even earlier stuff, such as a pre-historic village at least 7 thousand years old. And what... nothing! You can see absolutely nothing "as it was", you can just listen to somebody explaining what this stone means, or how there was something in that hole but it got removed 50 years ago. And I've always been thinking - is it too much to ask to get something restored so as you wouldn't have to imagine, but would just be able to see it?
Anyway, that led me thinking to this and that, and then came my idea for the Roma IV project. Situated in Australia, as (after much thinking) I decided Australia is the best place for it, although the Romans never reached it.
Briefly, the idea is this:
- get sufficient land somewhere for a medium-size self-supporting town
- build there a medium-size self-supporting town
- while building it, use only Ancient technology, and following Ancient architecture, furniture designs, landscaping etc.
- get people to live there as the Ancients lived, using no modern technologies: grow their own food by "low-tech" agriculture, make their own stuff: everything from spoons to carts etc.
- in general, try to model the society on the Roman society (their peculiar form of democracy, as practised in the late Republic)
- and... well, there's much more to it really.
I have started a web site for this at http://www.romaiv.com/
There's almost nothing there yet, but I have posted my original description of the idea (a dozen pages) in a members-only area, and have tried to start some discussions. *Many* discussions are needed for all sorts of aspects of the idea, and it needs a good strong virtual community going before anything is to be done "in the real world". However, I think in the long run it is a very realistic project, which will be a) fun, and b) a solid business.
Please visit the site, have a read of the (small) list of FAQs I have assembled, and if interested - register there and participate in the discussions (or comment here).
Best,
Pavel
http://www.pavka.com.au/
Re: A new project: Build a Roman town, for real! - damianlz - 06-08-2011
Oh man I think I need to move up to QLD, I will DEFINITELY be rocking over to help out!
Re: A new project: Build a Roman town, for real! - pavka - 06-08-2011
Please feel invited :-)
Re: A new project: Build a Roman town, for real! - jvrjenivs - 06-08-2011
Well, I like your idea and probably also share your way of thinking. However, I think you should think about certain aspects of it a bit more. Of course that was also why posting this on here of course.
From my experience as working as a 'historical figure' in a cultural museum and doing lots of other 'Roman' things, including several long distance marches, I know a bit what it means to be in kit most of the days. Well, as this might be fun in the begin, it will be hard to do in the end! Most people will get back to their computer, cars, etc.
Also, you should take modern legal rules into account. I don't know about your area of course, but I can imagine that in the Netherlands, no public would be allowed in your park, if you make it the way you intent. All to do with safety, health and hygiene.
I hope you don't see it as a personal attack, as it surely isn't. Just my point of view, and I can only encourage more 'living history parks'.
Re: A new project: Build a Roman town, for real! - pavka - 06-08-2011
Hi Jvrjenivs,
I don't actually want it to be a "park", I want a real town where people spend some length of time (weeks/months) before going back to their cars.
One of the main issues will be how to make their life comfortable without modern electronics and machines, so in some ways it will not be very realistic (for example, even the Plebs will always have good food, good housing, there will be good plumbing everywhere etc.), and a lot of festivals and other "fun" events will be organised to compensate for the missing modern entertainment.
As for safety and legal - this is the main problem I foresee. I think the best way to go about it will be to register the whole thing as a "members-only" club, so it will not be open to the general public. If you want to go there, you will have to become a member, agree to the rules and take the necessary responsibilities.
I have to admit the details are still murky, that's why I am trying to get as much feedback (and participation) as possible before anything "in the real world" is initiated.
Re: A new project: Build a Roman town, for real! - agrimensor - 06-08-2011
hi, Pavel.
Several years ago on tv in europe there were some series of people living as if it was the victorian age or even older. they did this for a year. Every thing they needed was there and stil they had a hard time. To get al the crafstsmen for such an undertaking ia a lifetime achievment on it self. So i won't dicurriage you and whish the best of luck to make this work and i hope it will give a lot of fun.
Vale
Re: A new project: Build a Roman town, for real! - Vindex - 06-08-2011
Pavel
Have a look at this - most certainly NOT a theme park!
http://www.ancienttechnologycentre.co.uk/history.html
There's a Viking long house, an Iron Age round house and a Saxon house and it is primarily an education cente. School parties come for the children to learn EXCATLY what it was like without all of the home comforts and regularly stay over for several nights (young childern just one nights with their teachers).
It's also popular for re-enactor(when they are allowed access - it's a working place!) and there are some great concerts/gigs in the Earth House.
It's a fabulous experience and I know there are others in Europe too.
You plan is impressive in it's scale and even if you only get to do a small part of it I think it is a great endeavour. Best of luck!
ETA: Luke and ANthony who are the full time staff at the ACT are very approachable and would, I am sure, but happy for you to contact them to share experiences and the H&S nightmare.
Re: A new project: Build a Roman town, for real! - pavka - 06-08-2011
Thanks Vindex, that's precisely the places and people I need to contact :-)
Unfortunately, most of them are in Europe but I still hope they will be interested to help a project Down Under.
Re: A new project: Build a Roman town, for real! - Marcus Aemilius Longinus - 06-08-2011
Well it might not be a full sized town, but there is hope for a proper marching camp to be reconstructed courtesy of Paul Harston.
http://www.romanfort.co.uk/
Re: A new project: Build a Roman town, for real! - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 06-09-2011
I would love to live in a reconstructed Roman house in Pompeii, wearing Roman clothes all the time, cooking on a wood stove for the rest of my life, like a living tourist attraction... xD
M.VIB.M.
Re: A new project: Build a Roman town, for real! - richsc - 06-09-2011
What would the Australian gov't think of this?
Re: A new project: Build a Roman town, for real! - Gaius Decius Aquilius - 06-09-2011
Reguarding the original buildings and walls in Hisar: Have you thought about hitting up some of the multi-national banks and corporations for doing real restoration? Form a non-profit (however you do that there) and solicit the Public Relations office of everyone on the international stock exchange. Many of the corporate banks and Big Anything are in need of some good PR right now, and it will help your economy. You have to hit up a LOT of them but all you need is one good fincial grant When corporations do things like this they will make sure everybody knows about. "Ripoff Bank cares about cultural heratage. See what we did in Hisar?" (Photos attached.)
I was on an archaeological project that was funded this way. We almost got some free 4 wheel drive trucks for a TV commercial from an auto manufacturing corporation.
Ralph
Re: A new project: Build a Roman town, for real! - Olaf - 06-09-2011
Sounds a little bit like this French project:
http://www.guedelon.fr/
So with the right people and conceptual planning something like this should be possible.
Re: A new project: Build a Roman town, for real! - Musivarius - 06-09-2011
Good luck with your project Pavel,
I think though that using 'authentic' materials and techniques you have to take into account the amount of people with not just the requisite skills but (and this is the important bit) the experience over an extended period of time to effectively put them into use. You only have to look at the Wroxeter Roman Villa project to see the problems.
Taking part in building using authentic materials and techniques is something which is open to only a few, ie the builders, everyone else can only watch/read about it. Once the place is built then you have the experience open to so many more people to come in, wear the clothes, whip the slaves etc.
Personally I think you could built a villa using breezeblocks then just plaster over the walls, no one can see the internal structure anyway. With a fixed budget you'd get a bibigger villa, faster and then the public get to see it sooner.
As I said good luck and I'll go onto the site,
Lawrence
Re: A new project: Build a Roman town, for real! - pavka - 06-09-2011
Gaius Decius Aquilius: Yes, this is one of the things that have to be done in the long run, but I'll do it in Australia so it will be "building it from scratch", not "restoring".
I'd love to do it in my native town of Hisar, but it's hopeless for several reasons:
- there's already people living there who will not want their current lives disturbed,
- there's no spare money in Bulgaria for such projects (and even if there was, the way everything is decided there is through corruption, not good sense),
- and I think it will be illegal, because in Europe they have this principle to "preserve" remains, not actually restore them. When Bulgaria was communist, there were a couple of such projects to "restore" buildings - most notably in the old capital of Tyrnovo, which are heavily criticised now because the "restorations" are practically "inventions" ov modern architects that have nothing to do with the originals but the floor plan. To say nothing of the fact that they use (visible) modern concrete on supposed XII-century buildings.