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+--- Thread: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test (/showthread.php?tid=15287)
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Paralus - 10-02-2009
Hello "Old Man"! I'd though I'd visited a plague of beer drinking locusts in your direction.
The point about the "glue" remains though.
Emil me: an interesting thing or two I have ... in Yoda speak.
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - PMBardunias - 10-02-2009
Quote:By Philip of Macedon's time, in the pursuit of lightness it appears from an example from Olynthus that laminated 'plywood' strips very similar to the roman scutum construction was in use.
Surely we have too few samples to discern a trend over time. The various construction methods may have been concurrent for all we know. Also, I know you disagree, though I don't know why, that the interior of Chigi vase shields represent lathe construction, but this surely could be the case. Compare it to some Assyrian shields, where the pattern seems to faithfully show the reed and rawhide construction.
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Matt Lukes - 10-02-2009
The issue with the glue isn't the same with respect to shields also because they're covered with metal, hide and painted- probably waxed too and in the Roman case (likely others too) had oiled, leather protective covers too- all help protect them from water damage whereas the armour seemed rather difficult to protect and still remain usable, particularly because some of the most significant problem moisture will be wearer perspiration...
And as for the issue of whether the glue makes a significant difference in the protective value, it absolutely does- a HUGE difference; I did a quick and dirty test with both glued and layered (not considering the option of extremly close stitching) linen- just stabbing down with a recreation sword and while the penetration of the layered linen was not going to be fun for anyone on the 'wearing' side, the glued piece stopped the sword's point cold.
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - PMBardunias - 10-03-2009
Not really on topic, but I came across this image of early t-y corselets from the museo in Taranto.
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Dan Howard - 10-03-2009
Quote:And as for the issue of whether the glue makes a significant difference in the protective value, it absolutely does- a HUGE difference; I did a quick and dirty test with both glued and layered (not considering the option of extremly close stitching) linen- just stabbing down with a recreation sword and while the penetration of the layered linen was not going to be fun for anyone on the 'wearing' side, the glued piece stopped the sword's point cold.My results were the complete opposite. Closely spaced quilted linen protects better than fish glue, casein glue, and modern pva. I tested broadhead arrows, bodkin arrows, a few different knives and a stiletto spike. I needed about half an inch of spacing between rows to get similar protection to the glue. If the rows of stitching were any closer then quilting provides better protection. If you cross-hatch the quilting, the level of protection reduces for some reason. If the layers of linen are rotated so that the weft and warp in each layer run in different directions then both the glued and quilted examples provide better protection. Glue also increased the weight more than quilting and there was no ventilation at all making it less comfortable to wear. There is no conceivable reason for using glue to make layered linen armour. Layered textiles have been used as armour for many centuries by many cultures and there are quite a few of them in various collections. Not a single one of them uses glue and the only time leather is used in the construction is as a protective or decorative layer on the outside. There is no evidence and no precedent for glued linen armour.
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Matt Lukes - 10-05-2009
Yes Dan, we all know your position on the matter, and I'm certainly not of a different opinion LOL Funny that your test results were the opposite of mine- it's quite counterintuitive to see how anything could not benefit from an added toughening element with respect to how it performs as penetration defense. Then again so is cross-hatching being worse than rows- must be some very subtle physics there...
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Paullus Scipio - 10-05-2009
Regardless of the results obtained by different people's tests and their variations, I would agree with Dan - archaeologically and historically there is no evidence at all for 'glued linen' or what we might term 'ancient fibreglass' ( i.e. a woven strengthener in a matrix of resin ) :lol: :lol:
As far as I know, the idea of 'glued linen' originated with Peter Connolly in his "Greek Armies" (1977), and if not, then certainly popularised by him and has been blindly followed by many ever since - but without any evidence to support the idea. Connolly, whose work has inspired much interest in ancient Greek and Roman Warfare, was not immune to error and the occasional bad idea and even mistake - another one being his 'Carthaginian Pikeman' armed Macedonian style, which was based on a mistaken translation in Loeb.......
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Matt Lukes - 10-05-2009
Well that's the major reason I now only go by primary sources- mistakes are easy, and myths started unintentionally, so going by 'basic' books, artwork, diagrams and such are always dangerous as one never knows what's theory and what's fact, or what small details the particular artist is adding him/herself or has missed- only original objects or checking the original sources (multiple translations- or original text if you're cool enough to be able to read them
) is going to really give you the best answer possible.
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Giannis K. Hoplite - 10-05-2009
Or the best question possible... :wink:
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Matt Lukes - 10-05-2009
Indeed!
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - PMBardunias - 10-06-2009
On the topic of linen armor, I came across this image. What do you think? Its the 36th image from Villa Guilia on CVA.
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Doc - 10-06-2009
I am going to throw in my two cents and state that layered linen that has been stitched is quite durable. It allows for good mobility due to its flexibility and also has elements of rigidity that could at least protect agains a swiping blade. I made a skirt of pteryges, three layers deep. Each strip is about .25 inches ( 6.4mm) thick. When you have three staggered rows overlapping, it is a good defence. I cannot attest to the strength since they took me a long time to make by hand and I am not going to stab them with any sort of point.
I also tried all sorts of glues and the result was a very hard wood-like substance that would resisit stabbing. However, once it got wet, it began to weaken becoming more flexible than the stitched and eventually began to fall apart.
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Giannis K. Hoplite - 10-06-2009
Could you post photos of it?
When you say three layers,you mean three layers of liner or three layers of pteryges? If you mean pteryges,then how many layers of linen produced 6.4mm thickness?
Paul,it could be quilted armour,but i tend to think it is more likely a fur of some kind. The reason why i think it is because the rectangles were not produced by scratching vertical lines but by making a zig-zag pattern that in the end produces a quilting-like efect. Also the way he wears it resembles the way lion skins were worn,and yes,i noted that the lion skin in the same vase is depicted differently. Could be anything (with a LOT of imagination even scale)
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Doc - 10-06-2009
Giannis,
Three layers of pteryges; three staggered rows.
I used burlap linen as the inner filler (7b layers) and an out finer linen as a cover (1 layer).
Iposted photos here on RAT a while ago.When I get home I will see where I put them and post them again
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - rocktupac - 10-12-2009
Quote:My results were the complete opposite. Closely spaced quilted linen protects better than fish glue, casein glue, and modern pva. I tested broadhead arrows, bodkin arrows, a few different knives and a stiletto spike. I needed about half an inch of spacing between rows to get similar protection to the glue. If the rows of stitching were any closer then quilting provides better protection. If you cross-hatch the quilting, the level of protection reduces for some reason. If the layers of linen are rotated so that the weft and warp in each layer run in different directions then both the glued and quilted examples provide better protection. Glue also increased the weight more than quilting and there was no ventilation at all making it less comfortable to wear. There is no conceivable reason for using glue to make layered linen armour. Layered textiles have been used as armour for many centuries by many cultures and there are quite a few of them in various collections. Not a single one of them uses glue and the only time leather is used in the construction is as a protective or decorative layer on the outside. There is no evidence and no precedent for glued linen armour.
This is going to sound repetitive, but the results from the testing I have done along with Prof. Greg Aldrete over the past two or more years were completely opposite to everything you claim. To summarize: we found closely spaced quilting (or any type of quilting for that matter) proved inferior to laminating; we found that rotating the direction of the weft and warp made no difference, we even conducted tests on a patch where each layer was slightly more rotated than the previous so the warp and weft directions were even more extreme, but this too made no difference; we have no experience wearing a full piece of quilted armor (of the type IV variety, according to Jarva's typology), but a full piece of armor made by lamination is extremely comfortable to wear, and we have experience wearing the armor on a number of occasions for up to 8 hours at a time in a range of temperatures (including mid-summer's heat while performing various athletic demonstrations) with little irritation; we tested a total of 10 replica arrowheads of varying shapes and sizes, made from bronze and iron, using wood shafts and natural fletchings (everything was as accurate as we could), using bows of varying strength and from varying distances. The testing was quite exhaustive and in every case laminated linen performed extraordinarily well, especially when considering that our tests were performed in a sort of 'worst case scenario' (i.e. from close ranges and at a perpendicular angle).
I realize there is no explicit evidence for laminated linen armor thus far, and you have also made it clear that there are precedents for quilted cloth armor in other cultures, but as far as I know there is no mention that the Greeks or any other ancient Mediterranean peoples wore textile armor that was quilted. What is striking about the absence of quilted armor references for the Archaic and Classical periods is that there appears over two dozen literary examples of soldiers wearing armor made of linen and none of them even hint at the armor being quilted or stitched or sewn, etc. (I am also aware that it does not refer to the armor as laminated or glued, etc. as well) My point is that there was a type of armor made of linen and nothing we have suggests it was one or the other.
For our tests we have also found every artistic representation of type IV armor found in the Corpus Vasorum Antiquorum (nearly 1,000 examples so far). Many have used what looks to be a kind of quilted armor on the vases as evidence for its existence, but when the entire body of vase paintings from the CVA is examined the number of the so-called 'quilted armor' examples is a tiny fraction of the smooth-looking, 'not-quilted' types. Though this is admittedly a featherweight argument, it does add another slight bit of weight for the argument against quilting.