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+--- Thread: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test (/showthread.php?tid=15287)
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - MeinPanzer - 10-16-2009
Quote:Aaaah!...it warms the cockles of my heart to see someone else draw this conclusion apart from me !!D lol:
I think it presents - dare I say it? - a relatively reasonable conclusion to the whole debate. That is no small feat!
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Kineas - 10-16-2009
Quote:"there were brought in linen corslets [thorakes lineoi], cloaks [stolidia], helmets [perikephalaia], shields [hopla], greaves [knemides], short swords [machairai], bows [toxa], and arrows [toxeumata] stowed away in chests like those of merchants, with the statement that clothing and other merchandise were in them."
Can one of you send me the full quote and source? Off-line or on Hippeis?
Thanks much!
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - MeinPanzer - 10-16-2009
Quote:Quote:"there were brought in linen corslets [thorakes lineoi], cloaks [stolidia], helmets [perikephalaia], shields [hopla], greaves [knemides], short swords [machairai], bows [toxa], and arrows [toxeumata] stowed away in chests like those of merchants, with the statement that clothing and other merchandise were in them."
Can one of you send me the full quote and source? Off-line or on Hippeis?
Thanks much!
The quote is fully cited in my post at the top of page 5. It's Aeneas Tacticus 29.1-4, and the most widely-available publication of the original Greek is in the Loeb edition "Aeneas Tacticus, Asclepiodotus, Onasander."
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - PMBardunias - 10-16-2009
Quote:I think it presents - dare I say it? - a relatively reasonable conclusion to the whole debate. That is no small feat!
Ah, I can see my work is done... 8)
By the way, its worth looking at the list of words related to "Stola-" in LJS on Perseus. They can have a wide variety of meanings from "enwrapping" to folded or "wrinkled." In one interesting quote to be "armed": ???????????? ???? armed with spear, E.Supp.659; ???? ?????????? ???. Id.IA255 (lyr.); ???????? ???. Ach.Tat.3.7.
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Dain II. - 10-16-2009
Off-Topic: Giannis wrote:
Quote:Especially since leather cuirasses existed in Thrace and Skythia
Are there any references? I'm curious because I am very interessted in the armour of Skythia and Thrace and til now found no evidence for that only for calf-leather around 2 mm as backing for the scalearmours which were in use there.
Stephan
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Giannis K. Hoplite - 10-16-2009
Hello Stefan.
I was actually referring to those scale armours,because they often had the shape of the tube & yoke,scaled armour is frequently shown on greek art. Also there is another leather scale armour found that could habe been the tube of such a cuirass.
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Matt Lukes - 10-16-2009
Well I tried my test again, the 'subjects' and conditions being very similar to the first time, and the results are surprisingly different. I used the same linen, glue and actual rain outside at a temperature of about 12C- the two things I changed this time was to seal the edges of the swatches with silicone caulking- because I really wondered if the wick effect were a significant contributor to the result last time- and I didn't saturate the outer layers of linen with glue. One sample was left 'natural' with nothing added to its exterior, the other was liberally coated with paste beeswax.
After 25 minutes in the constant, medium-hard rain (not pouring but not just a drizzle- which remained consistent throughout the test period), it was clear the unprotected sample was absorbing water (it was darkening and felt somewhat slippery), and the wax-coated sample was not- the water just pooling in numerous places. The unprotected sample was quite flexible while the waxed sample remained relatively rigid, furhter confirming water was and wasn't being absorbed, respectively.
After 85 minutes, little had changed- the unprotected sample felt a little more slimy and more flexible but not to a large degree, and the waxed sample remianed protected and rigid.
I terminated the test at 120 minutes. Visually neither sample had changed, nor did their respective flexibilities seem any different. I cut off one edge of each sample to see the cross-section and this confirmed that no water had penetrated the waxed sample from the face. The unprotected sample was the significant surprise- water had indeed penetrated, to a depth of about 2mm (total thickness about 5mm), however there was no evidence of the layers separating due to flexing- even attempting to pry the layers apart only achieved a little separation of the outer layer. With a pointed tool, the outer layer could be pulled off without a lot of force, but deeper layers were not so easy.
Neither sample behaved the same way as last time- I got no delamination, the glue didn't absorb a huge amount of water and overall a cuirass made either way does look to be quite safe from even significant rainfall.
Why this time was so different I can only attribute to protecting the edges- I noted last time that my protected samples did absorb a good deal of water from the edges despite them having been treated just as the faces were. The wick effect must simply be far more sigificant than I'd initially expected. Perhaps also glue exposed on the surface somehow increases the water absorption- I also may have used more last time. I now wish I'd controlled for the edges at least this time- included a sample without the silicone- but oh well, next time. Beeswax doesn't seem necessarily a reasonable protectant given the availability issue- olive or another oil seems rather more likely and I'd like to try paint as well, so there will be a next time for sure.
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - rocktupac - 10-16-2009
Quote:Contemporary means "from the time of the items in question" ie 6th, 5th, and 4th century BC. A contemporary source is one from the period under discussion. There are no contemporary mentions of linen armor, save the one line in Alcaeus, and he's Lesbian-Aeolian. Contemporary does NOT mean 3rd c. or 2nd c. or Roman or Medieval or an Osprey book. Okay?
I read Classical Greek. If you do not read Greek and you don't know the Greek sources, and if you think "contemporary" means "modern," I have to assume that you are not a trained historian. That's not a dis--please don't take it as such. I just want to know what to aim my arguments at!
I didn't even realize I made that error until I read this post. I read your original post far too quickly and completely misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you meant our contemporaries; I totally misread it. :oops: For the record, I do not think 'contemporary' means 'modern'. :mrgreen:
...And no, I am not an archaeologist :wink:
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - PMBardunias - 10-16-2009
Quote:I now wish I'd controlled for the edges at least this time- included a sample without the silicone- but oh well, next time.
Folding the edges and sewing them tight, might be enough to "seal" them against the type of capillary action that is occuring without any special sealant. You may not even need to fold all the layers, but simply have a top and bottom layer or layers as a shell.
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Dan Howard - 10-16-2009
Even with quilted examples it seems that moisture was a problem. The usual solution was to cover the linen with a fine layer of leather.
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Matt Lukes - 10-16-2009
Right, that's what I was thinking for the real thing- either folding over and stitching or better some kind of leather edge binding since leather can be easily treated with oil or another waterproofer to help it.
If the rain keeps up here as it's supposed to, I can do an un-edged trial since the untreated sample has dried well over the past 5 hours... I sure hope it does what the first test showed or I'll be tortured wondering just why it behaved that way LOL
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Matt Lukes - 10-17-2009
Yup, that was it- the capillary action of the exposed edges draws water in rather efficiently- today's test showed the same, albeing a little less markedly, full-thickness absorption and subsequent delamination with just minimal force application. It would seem all but certain that anyone designing armour like this would have realized this problem and addressed it.
Overall all these results do suggest glued armour isn't fundamentally impossible- however, I wouldn't consider it support in the absence of any real reason to believe glue was ever used in this way. That it's not impossible is not sufficient.
Scott, just to try to understand the remaining difference in our results- that you didn't find samples delaminating after being thoroughly saturated- did you have the edges finished or otherwise didn't apply any force to them? I didn't find delamination centrally- that is flexing didn't separate the sample in the middle, only at the edges, and layers thence came apart easily when pulled. Clearly the glue was no longer effective when wet, but the shear force between the layers insufficient to comprimise it away from the edge.
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Kineas - 10-19-2009
Quote:I didn't even realize I made that error until I read this post. I read your original post far too quickly and completely misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you meant our contemporaries; I totally misread it. :oops: For the record, I do not think 'contemporary' means 'modern'. :mrgreen:
...And no, I am not an archaeologist :wink:
I read my last with some embarrassment, as well. Waxing pedantic, my wife calls it. I'm all too frequently guilty!
I'm not a fan of linen armor (glued) but I'll advance a semi-theory as to how to stabilize the edges without the work and complexity required in sewing edging all the way round--and I'll note that I think that this is commensurate with the period artistic evidence.
Many period vase illustrations in the period I study (6th and early 5th c. BCE) show some sort of edge tot the textile (or leather) surfaces. I admit that it might be decorative, but in my reconstruction of a leather and scale cuirass, I did those edges as riveted bronze. A riveted bronze edge on the linen thorax--whether glued or quilted--would protect the edges from delamination and also from all the other damage that a soft material can take--as well as providing a framework that allows a soft armor to keep a shape--even, for instance, when wet.
I think that one of my issues with glued linen is the difficulty in working it after the glue sets--even with all the appropriate tools and leather palms and the like, it seems to me a very hard material to sew. In period, with period tools, I mean! And to put holes in it--to mount scales, for instance, as we see on so many items of attic red figure--seems a great deal of work, whereas scales can be mounted easily on leather.
Only a quibble, I know.
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Matt Lukes - 10-22-2009
Well I would think it best to be done the way one stitches thick leather- by punching holes with an awl so one just runs the needle down the line as opposed to actually using the needle to pierce. And really softening a piece with water would make it even easier... so there is one benefit to the 'problem'.
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Kineas - 11-06-2009
Another tidbit--this time FOR linen armor in period.
I'm an equal opportunity researcher....
"Of all soils Pelasgian Argos is the best,
And best are the horses of Thessaly, the women of Lakedaimon,
and the men who drink the waters of lovely Arethusa,
but better even than these are they who dwell
between Tiryns and Arcadia, rich in sheep
the linen-corseleted Argives, goads of war
(Palatine Anthology, Oracle to the Megarans, 14.73) Oracle dates 650-550 BC