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Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Matt Lukes - 06-11-2009
Hi guys,
From a recent thread on the 'linothorax', and having never heard of anyone actually trying it, I found myself interested in doing a quick little test to see just how practical it would be to even have glued linen armour, all the theoretical arguments for and against aside. I used 320g hide glue (excellent stuff) and heavy 100% linen, and dry it seems it'd make very sturdy armour, but with just a relatively small amount of rain (20 minutes outside in light drizzle, at around 15C) and it de-plied quite readily. Of course that's really to be expected from hide glue given its solvent is water. Today I tried a second test (here it rains all the time except when you want it to LOL) with two samples this time, one well-coated with linseed oil, and one well-coated with paste beeswax. Neither one fared much better- granted it was a bit warmer, around 22C, but the rain lasted only about 15 minutes and was again rather light. The outermost layer of each came off readily, although the wax-sealed sample seems to have done a bit better than the linseed oiled one. I found, as would probably be expected, that more penetration occurred at the edges, which I did coat liberally, but clearly only a binding would really help any. Even so, the outer layer was still permiable enough to allow the glue to be softened substantially.
All-in-all though with just this little exposure to rain, I'm not terribly impressed nor particularly apt to think this would be a practical armour. Even in the driest contisions, sweat would surely be an issue. Given how gummy the rain made the outer face, sweat on the inner would be rather unpleasant I should think.
I suppose really the most I can say is that plain hide glue is not the most likely to ever make this idea succeed- perhaps there was another adhesive the ancients had that was more waterproof?
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - garrelt - 06-11-2009
If rain already will dissolve the glue, sweat surely will.
So the ballistic properties will also be lost very fast.
Maybe as an other test you could try to paint the outside layers.
I think that the only thing to keep it from falling apart is sewing the linen together, but then you would be talking more about quilted armour than about a Linothorax.
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-11-2009
What about a resin based glue? If there is such a thing? Plus as mentioned, a coating of paint and beeswax may help.
But I would also imagine the sewing would be essential. A combination of methods not just one or the other?
But my quilted subarmalis is practically stiff enough to be a linothorax on its own.
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Matt Lukes - 06-11-2009
I've only got some casein paint and that's not going to do the job- it cracks so doesn't seem a reasonable choice to me for use on anything flexible. I dunno, it seems like it has to get rather complicated to defend what's a purely speculative design...
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - garrelt - 06-11-2009
Welcome to the world of Experimental Archeology :wink:
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-11-2009
I wonder if the outer layer on these were a thin hide of some sort? a lot easier to water proof, but you still have the padding quality of the linen?
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Archelaos - 06-11-2009
What about the glues used to manufacture composite bows? I do not believe it was so vulnerable, as then composite bows would be completely unusable, dissolving due to 15 minutes rain.
Maybe they had some type of waterproof (or just more resistant) glue?
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-11-2009
It's fish-based, from some part of a fish. thats very true. :roll: :lol:
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Matt Lukes - 06-11-2009
Sturgeon swim bladder was/ is used by the Mongols and Koreans and probably the Turks, etc. but again that and the thin skin is all getting complicated again, no? This is a perfect illustration of why theories really need serious evaluation before they're accepted- the glue thing has been repeated umpteen times and maybe it should have never left the drawing board...
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-11-2009
Hungarians use the sturgeon based glue too, but that does not rule out a complex combination of elements. These people were after all, in many ways more advanced than we are today. Mind you, you would definately be attracting flys when out on a sunny day in Greece. :| lol:
i have toyed wit hthe idea of a thin leather layer on the outside, of my subarmalis to give it waterproofing, at least on the shoulders.
I am tempted to try it on a linothorax instead though, as you do not have the extra weight of another layer of metal armour on it, ie chain mail or a seg.
Looking forward to seeing pictures of your experiments Matt.
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Matt Lukes - 06-11-2009
Oh of course, nothing precludes it save for serious lack- I doubt if the North American plains native peoples used much fish glue, for example, but the Greeks- surely! The thing is that swim bladder glue is used for bows because it's quite elastic while being strong- the swim bladder expands and contracts quite a lot, so has very elastic collagens and elastomers- not because it's waterproof. I understand bows were covered with birch bark, various skins, etc. to protect them. But then a composite bow is a very complex object and that's what makes it work as it does- armour doesn't necessarily have such need. Armour is the last line of defense afterall- moving out of the way, one's shield and one's own weapons parrying all come first and constitute the vast majority of defense. Considering body armour to be necessarily complicated and sophistocated is not necessarily reasonable. Note how many peoples fought with virtually none or even naked- clearly armour wasn't the end all be all. I have no trouble with composite armour- but the glue?
The problem seems to stem from the observation that in many depictions the shoulder 'flaps' are up, thus suggesting the armour is flexible, which seems perfectly reasonable, and indeed multi-laminar glued linen is very good defense- but only when dry. Why then has it propogated as 'fact'? Because, like so many theories, it's described as fact in some books, and then later on TV, etc. It amazes me how much fairly far-fetched or dubious theory is stated factually in print...
And there are no pictures- there's nothing to see, just delaminated linen LOL I simply wanted to see if it would happen as I expected and it did.
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-11-2009
Well, I have always said my subarmalis reminded me of what I imagined a Linothorax to be, stiff, but also flexible, and it is all quilted and sewn. But I suggest the leather outer shell as a waterproofing layer.
If someone else would like to try the fishglue method, please let me know..... :roll: :wink: :lol:
Yes I can imagine the glue would not last long with out extra elements to reinforce it......
One thing I do recall from greece though was the sun and breeze would dry out your sweat pretty rapidly, even to the point of it seeming as if you did not sweat at all....odd sounding I know.....maybe my fond memories are blotting out the sticky bits.
As to it being fact, well I suppose many have read it as you say and assumned the people who wrote it were speaking fro mevidence and experience. I have had many illusions shattered for sure LOL
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Matt Lukes - 06-11-2009
It's unlikely- that glue is EXTREMELY expensive. I thought to try my hand at making a composite bow at some point and was amazed at the cost of the glue.
I just see this all as a good description of why Occam's Razor should be considered- why make things overly complicated when simpler works; layered linen, even combined with an inner or outer layer of something else (leather or whatever), stitched together sounds as if it could make reasonalby good armour- although that's something else to be tested- so why go to the lengths of factoring in the rather significant issues glue brings along? At least without demonstrating that it is practical...
You might be remembering more fondly or it might be really the case Byron- but unless you were wearing semi-rigid layered linen armour, it's hard to say if that observation would stand- hide glue doesn't need much moisture, and heat helps it melt a good deal so you have the factors regardless. It'd be interesting to try- maybe on a hot day I'll put a swatch of test 'armour' on and wear it around outside- we only get to maybe 30C on the really hot days here so it might not be quite Greek heat, but if even that does the job, that'll be telling.
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-11-2009
I agree there, why make your self stink and attract(more) flys than you need to. 8) The sewn subarmalis is amazingly light, the glue would also weigh it down a tad too.
on an aside, I am waiting on a traditionaly manufactured compound bow, and I guess what you say about the glue would be a factor in the price....I just better be able to pull the damn thing now or I'll really be kicking myself. :roll: :lol:
Re: Glued Linen Armour- a simple test - Dan Howard - 06-12-2009
Quote:I just see this all as a good description of why Occam's Razor should be considered- why make things overly complicated when simpler works; layered linen, even combined with an inner or outer layer of something else (leather or whatever), stitched together sounds as if it could make reasonalby good armour
You don't have to rely on Occam's razor. There are heaps of historical examples of layered linen armour - all of which is quilted. Some are covered with fine leather.