+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Roman Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Thread: Dimensions of Pila Muralia? (/showthread.php?tid=12505)
Pages:
1
2
Dimensions of Pila Muralia? - Neuraleanus - 04-29-2008
I need to make some pila muralia, palisade stakes, and I have several illustrations, but what were the typical dimensions, length and maximum width? They did seem to vary a bit in size.
Re: Dimensions of Pila Muralia? - Nerva - 04-29-2008
You do ask difficult questions :lol:
I do not know if any examples exist. I'm sure they varied significantly in size but, we use 3"x3" by 4' long examples for re-enactment purposes. We even have a couple of 6"x6" by 5'.
But who knows???
Re: Dimensions of Pila Muralia? - Neuraleanus - 04-30-2008
also known, when put together, as the ericius:
[url:5f7c30m6]http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p239/mcbishop/BandC2/fig068.png[/url]
If I'm correctly reading the scale this one is about five feet long. This site also confirms the five foot length, though I do not agree with how they have setup the pila muralia:
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilum_murale
Re: Dimensions of Pila Muralia? - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 04-30-2008
I think the term "pila muralia" is not correct. There are a term cited by Julius Caesar, and probably refers to an special kind of pilum very heavy used to defend the walls.
And there are some of that palisade stakes preserved, one of them the depicted in Bishop/Coulston.
Re: Dimensions of Pila Muralia? - Magnus - 04-30-2008
I agree Lee...far too easy to pull stakes like that over or pass through them. I like the caltrop configuration.
Re: Dimensions of Pila Muralia? - Scipio Bristolus - 04-30-2008
I remember that the view that they were lined up side-by-side was accepted by the 'experts'.
Then on that TV prog where they turned 8 members of the public into 'Roman Soldiers' the soldiers came up with the idea of the caltrops based upon seeing and then testing the little ledge on the sample marching fort ditch they had to dig. The 'experts' looked a little peeved that they had been out-thought.
hock: I expect to be told that all good re-enactors had worked this out ages before....
Re: Dimensions of Pila Muralia? - PhilusEstilius - 04-30-2008
I think that these palisade stakes had a double function, on the open battle field situation they would be used in Caltrop fashion on the flanks to hold off cavalry. Then if we consider the Legion on the march 5 to 6,000 of these stakes would fit very nicely around a 30 or 40 acre marching camp wall for an overnight stay. I don't think that anyone would have had the Gual to try to just walk through them If you'll excuse the Pun. Where we consider the size of them I'd say that Martin has it about right, for used in the Caltrop fashion at a 45 degree angle they would stop a 13 to 14 hands horse in his soft under parts.
Re: Dimensions of Pila Muralia? - Kate Gilliver - 04-30-2008
Quote:I remember that the view that they were lined up side-by-side was accepted by the 'experts'.
Then on that TV prog where they turned 8 members of the public into 'Roman Soldiers' the soldiers came up with the idea of the caltrops based upon seeing and then testing the little ledge on the sample marching fort ditch they had to dig. The 'experts' looked a little peeved that they had been out-thought.
I expect to be told that all good re-enactors had worked this out ages before....
It wasn't quite like that, Simon. I'm not the only 'expert' to have trashed the 'lined up side-by-side' view, but you can read my stuff on the calthrop theory in Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies for 1993 and summarised in Roman Art of War 1999. Chris Haines had let me play with some of the ESG's palisade stakes at an English Heritage extravaganza at Maiden Castle in the early 90s, I spoke about it at the Military Equipment conference at Leiden in about 94, and it went from there. If you watch the Timewatch programme I did with the BBC that was broadcast in 2001, you'll see me trashing the 'lined up side-by-side' view on screen, and we then played with the calthrop design on a short section of rampart that the 'soldiers' had built. Far from being 'peeved', I was - and from my perspective do look on screen - genuinely delighted that the experimental archaeology had actually done something that suggested a possible alternative to my design that is illustrated by Ian Dennis in the JRMES article and the book. It was that afternoon that made a week of stomping around in a flooded field in the middle of winter worthwhile! There you go - a nice example of how research can develop :wink:
Incidentally, the JRMES paper also discusses the potential use of palisade stakes in calthrop formation as ericius or hedgehog, in the gates of camps and on the battlefield.
Re: Dimensions of Pila Muralia? - Matthew Amt - 04-30-2008
Right, the usual term for these stakes is sudes, and they are not necessarily a regular part of a legionary's marching load. As I recall, Bishop and Coulston mentions a cache of about 300 stakes found at some fort site, the nicer ones marked with centurions' names. Generally they seem to run about 5 feet long, and while some were apparently up to about 4 inches square, 1-1/2" square is also legitimate. Easier to lug around, too! So I cut all mine from 2x2 lumber rather than 4x4s.
I also remember someone pointing out that if the stakes are embedded in the rampart as it is being built, they don't need to be driven in. If you bury them to about half their length, they'll be more secure in the ground. They can stick out of the face of the rampart at an angle, or be lined up vertically on top, in which case they'll form a fence that is still tall enough to cover the defenders' legs below their shields. But it sure would be nice if we could see ANY of these possible methods shown on Trajan's Column!!
Valete,
Matthew
Re: Dimensions of Pila Muralia? - Hibernicus - 04-30-2008
Some years back we abanodoned the use of the term pila muralia in favor of valli thanks to Kate's article in JRMES 4
I have never been a fan of the vertical wall for these stakes and believe that lashing them together (thus making it easier for an opponent to pull down entire sections) is un-wise.
Set them along the face of the vallum and perhaps down into the fossa as tribuli or as individual valli with points facing outward.
I am an advocate of the use of valli on the battlefield and we practice setting up tribuli as part of our battlefield drill.
We make ours 48" long..
Re: Dimensions of Pila Muralia? - Decimus Aurelius Varus - 04-30-2008
When striking up camp, whether in peace or war, the sudes could also be stuck in the ground at 45 degree angles forming X's. Defenses were not only used to keep attackers OUT, but also to keep soldiers and possible spies IN. If you vary the sudes to every other one pointing out and NOT tie them together, but instead plant them firm into the ground, then they might serve that purpose as well... :?: 
Re: Dimensions of Pila Muralia? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 04-30-2008
I imagine a barrier of these on the right flank would deter an enemy attacking the unshielded right flank...... 8)
Re: Dimensions of Pila Muralia? - Tim Edwards - 05-02-2008
My own (admittedly bad!!) attached pictures from Aalen and the Saalburg
Although I like the caltrop arrangement, reenactors often set them up poorly, and my own group is equally as guilty.
If they are to be effective, they need to be almost half buried. Otherwise a well planted size 10 boot in the crux of the stake junctions could send them flying into the faces of the unfortunate legionaries sheltering behind!!
Re: Dimensions of Pila Muralia? - Tim Edwards - 05-02-2008
more:
Re: Dimensions of Pila Muralia? - Magnus - 05-02-2008
Thanks for the pics Tim.