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Re: Roman Ship? - Epictetus - 12-17-2009
Thanks, Michael. That's a good catch. I'm quite fond of Strabo, but I've never noticed that passage before!
Re: Roman Ship? - Gorgon - 12-18-2009
Quote:And apparently, those jars are the entire basis for the "Roman shipwreck" story. So, haul one out of the water and show us! Is it Roman or Spanish?
Obviously Portuguese since Brazil was a portuguese colony, not spanish ;p
EDIT: beaten
Re: Roman Ship? - Gorgon - 12-18-2009
Quote:I did a google serch for the bay of jugs and found a web page on it. It states that they found with sonar what appeared to be a ship. The goverments of Brazil, Spain and Portugual stopped the further exploration of the site. Then the Brazilian govorment burried the site. That is the only thing I found.
Could you provide that link?
Re: Roman Ship? - M. Demetrius - 12-18-2009
I don't know if this is THE link, but it's A link.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1038045/posts
Try "Roman ship in Brazil" in your search window. OTOH, the Bay of Pugs is perhaps interesting... 8)
Re: Roman Ship? - Gorgon - 12-19-2009
My problem with that site (I've seen it before) is that there are no real prof of the claims.
Quote:If he had only known what treasures he was destroying! In recent years, a scuba diver was spear fishing around Xareu Rock and found eight similar jars that he took home.
He sold six jars to tourists before the Brazilian police arrested him with the two remaining jars for illegally selling ancient artifacts. Archaeologists immediately identified these as Roman amphorae of the 1st century B.C
What scuba diver? What archaeologists? Surely they have names and a workplace? Where and when did they "confirm" this?
Quote:One of the world’s foremost authorities on Roman shipwrecks, Robert Marx, found more artifacts and confirmed this as an authentic Roman shipwreck.
I don't know him neither have a read any of his book so no comment here.
Quote:The world’s foremost authority on Roman amphorae analyzed the clay in the jars and confirmed that these were manufactured at Kouass which was a Roman seaport, 2000 years ago, on the coast of modem-day Morocco. The Institute of Archaeology of the University of London performed thermo luminescence testing (which is a more accurate dating process than Carbon 14 dating) and the date of the manufacture was determined to be around 19 B.C. Many more amphorae and some marble objects were recovered, as well as a Roman bronze fibula (a clasp device used to fasten a coat or shirt).
Does this world's foremost authorithy have a name? Where and when did he/she confirmed anything? Where is the paper from the University of London? Where is that roman fibula?
Quote:We only know about it because of what Robert Marx learned before he was dismissed and what the University of London has leaked
What leak? Where? When?
Quote:Several hundred ancient Roman silver and bronze coins were unearthed near Recife, Brazil. Did these once belong to the castaways of the Salt Ship?
Where is the report on this? Official confirmation? Anything?
Quote: A tribe of white, mostly blonde haired, blue-eyed "Indians" has been found in a remote region of the Amazon jungle. Could these be the descendants of the shipwrecked sailors of the Xareu wreck? DNA analysis of these “Indians” will surely bring some interesting facts to light!
Is this true? Where is the reports for this? Photos? Is there anything official about this?
Basically, I'm not saying this is a lie or a scam, all this can very well be true, but extraordinary claims demand prof, not some obscure webpages on the internet. For taking any of this seriously I personaly need a lot more.
Re: Roman Ship? - SvenLittkowski - 01-09-2010
Hi, this is Sven Littkowski, I am active in maritime archaeology (as a life-time hobby) since around 25 years. In the United States, three books feature some of my works in that field, and I also interact with Arvid Göttlicher (Germany) and did communicate with Lionel Casson (USA).
First, this thread is very interesting, and requires a listing of all links talking about ancient ships, coins, items and persons in the Americas. Mentioning just that some information is somewhere on the Internet is not enough, we need to be able to research on those links. Please list these links here.
While the typical Roman war galleys might have had tremendous problems to reach out that far over an ocean known to be stormy and generally uncalm, merchant ships might have been able to make it ... just. Also, while most Roman warship types were light-built galleys, with openings in the sides, the ships of the ancient tribe of the Veneters (not today's Venice, but a tribe located where today's France is) where been made for stormy weathers. So, IF any ship made it that far over tendencially stormy waters, then Veneter ships or cargo ships.
We know today, that the ancient people had some sea expeditions around the African continent, and that they also went up to the Baltic Sea and even to India (from harbors along Egypt's coast of the Red Sea). There were Roman colonies in India, and there was even an exchange of goods between Rome and China, but the Indians and Chinese did the sea transport on that route up to india, from where Roman ships took over partially (the Indians never wanted the Romans to know the passage to China).
I am running the project Forum Navis Romana, and have created some hundreds of high resolution side views of ancient ships of the Roman and Byzantine time and seas. I am linking to some of those who could have made this theoretical voyage to the Americas, and to some who couldn't have done it.
It is a question if they really made it, if that was then intentionally or accidentally. I am pretty good in web research, once I get some start links. I could tell you soon, how trustworthy and detail-correct those online resources are you all are mentioning.
By the way, I saw some links to ship reconstruction sketches showing ancient Roman ships with more than one main mast. Those sketches are faulty, Roman ships had no more than one main mast (and the diagonal artemon mast). Only some of the Gallo-Roman transport vessels of the Ponto type had up to three masts (two main masts and the artemon mast). Also, some of those sketches are based on totally false, pre-1900 Russian reconstruction sketches or on the "adventurious" Ben Hur movie ships (1950's, with Charlton Heston)...
Some of them, however, are correct.
To calculate between capable and incapable, I measured ship size, equipment, storage space, crew size, and sail size.
Possible Ship Types
http://Navis.TerraRomana.org/v/Prom/Possible01.jpg - converted former war galley - maybe just capable
http://Navis.TerraRomana.org/v/Prom/Possible02.jpg - one of the largest annona transporters, Ponto type - capable
http://Navis.TerraRomana.org/v/Prom/Possible03.jpg - smaller Ponto along the ancient French coast (St. Gervais) - capable
http://Navis.TerraRomana.org/v/Prom/Possible04.jpg - The Europa, impressive ancient freighter, Greek construction style - capable
http://Navis.TerraRomana.org/v/Prom/Possible05.jpg - Europa's largest ship's boat, for transport between ship and harbour or beach - maybe just capable
Impossible Ship Types
http://Navis.TerraRomana.org/v/Prom/Impossible01.jpg - Quadriremis, Battle of Actium, Egyptian - Crew too large for food storage, open sides
http://Navis.TerraRomana.org/v/Prom/Impossible02.jpg - Triremis, Republic era - Crew too large for food storage, open sides
http://Navis.TerraRomana.org/v/Prom/Impossible03.jpg - Triremis, Battle of Actium - Crew too large for food storage, open sides
http://Navis.TerraRomana.org/v/Prom/Impossible04.jpg - West Roman Triremis Vehiculum, Dromon, 530 AD - Crew too large for food storage, open sides
http://Navis.TerraRomana.org/v/Prom/Impossible05.jpg - Liburna, Biremis, battle of Actium - Crew too large for food storage, open sides
http://Navis.TerraRomana.org/v/Prom/Impossible06.jpg - Enneris, imperial time - Crew too large for food storage, open sides
http://Navis.TerraRomana.org/v/Prom/Impossible07.jpg - Octeris, Karthago era - Crew too large for food storage, open sides
http://Navis.TerraRomana.org/v/Prom/Impossible08.jpg - Hmm!
http://Navis.TerraRomana.org/v/Prom/Impossible09.jpg - Triremis, Battle of Actium - Crew too large for food storage, open sides
http://Navis.TerraRomana.org/v/Prom/Impossible11.jpg - Triremis, Republic era (same as I.02, sorry) - Crew too large for food storage, open sides
http://Navis.TerraRomana.org/v/Prom/Impossible12.jpg - Provincial-Roman, North Africa (Tunisia), Imperial time - just "a little bit" too small
They look bigger than they were, remember, humans were a bit smaller than today. The largest ships were around 110 meters, usually however around 50 to 60 meters. And even those were already big. There were many, many more smaller ones. Look at I.12, there's a tiny cosy one... ;-) )
Re: Roman Ship? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 01-09-2010
There are a couple of the large one in your possible list that I would agree are very capable looking, for a cross atlantic voyage.
I am amazed they actually had ships that big.... :o
Re: Roman Ship? - markusaurelius - 01-09-2010
Haven't read every post, but noticed the recent talk about whether the Romans could have made the voyage. Just as a side note, the Vikings made it to North America in the 10th Century, and their ships (knarr) were only 16 meters long and obviously made of wood....
Re: Roman Ship? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 01-09-2010
Exactly! Never say never! We seem to have several milennia missing from the record. One missing ship, not unfeasible.
Re: Roman Ship? - Iagoba - 01-11-2010
After Brendan's voyage by Tim Severin, America doesn't seem too far. :wink: And that ship was of wood and leather...
Re: Roman Ship? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 01-12-2010
And its an even shorter voyage if you head south west when leaving the straites of Gibralter!
Re: Roman Ship? - aquilifer - 01-15-2010
Hmmm any chance maybe that it was a carthaginian ship?
Bought a dvd about hannibal while ago and it showed that the first roman fleet was basically taken from the carthaginian models.
One got stuck on sicily I believe, the romans pounced on it immediatly ofcourse, took it apart and they were able to amass a large naval force in a very short time using the exact same model as the carthaginian one.
Or maybe some roman ship got lost on the sea, they couldn't find their way around and accidently stumbled upon america.
With a weird name as quatzalcoatl (maybe they couldn't understand a roman inscription, but formed from it that name?) and the bearded white skinned bloke, it could be possible.
Ofcourse for northern europeans, they aren't really that light skinned, but if they thought cortés (a spaniard) was the second coming of quatzalcoatl, of which they also though was "light" skinned", then I don't see why they couldn't take a roman for "light" skinned aswell ...
Re: Roman Ship? - Ron Andrea - 01-16-2010
Romans in China may be silly, but they'd only have had to walk there.
Crossing the Atlantic--even the Africa to Brazil--is a very different matter, though the currents approaching zero latitude favor east-to-west shipping. Most Mediterranean military and merchant shipping of the empire would have trouble with the open seas, though assumedly something went back and forth to Britannia.
Of course it can be done. Have you seen Sahara? A low-decked Confederate iron-clad made the same trip the opposite direction. :lol:
Re: Roman Ship? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 01-16-2010
I don't know. After seeing some of the vessels posted above, thay may have actually had a better time with the longer period waves of the open Atlantic, than the shorter period but equally violent medeteranean seas. Old Columbus' ships weren't that much bigger. :o
Re: Roman Ship? - Ron Andrea - 01-16-2010
No, they weren't. And the dumpy Roman merchant ships I've seen illustrated don't look all that different from Columbus's boats either.
The Discover which brought the English to Jamestown in 1607 (seen on the reverse of the 2000 US quarter) was a 38' open "flyboat." Also not something I'd want to cross the Atlantic in.