Eastern Roman Empire Troop types?

[Anonymous]

In the Eastern Roman Empire around maybe 1050-1100ish, I'm looking at troop types. There seems to be plenty of cavalry mentioned. What I'm not seeing is much mention of infantry. I've seen some references to spear men , (vestarie (sp)?) out of Greece in a anti cavalry role. Would these troops be expected to engage heavy infantry such as those commonly fielded by the Turks? Of course we do see mention of the famous Varangian Guards on campaign. They seem to be generally well armored and armed with axes and swords. Where mentioned, they seem to be quite devastating, but were there ever really enough of them to go beyond the role of body guard for the general/Emperor? Were the spearmen usually just expected to hold the line until the heavy cavalry could smash in? Also, does anyone know about the ratio of cavalry to infantry at this point? Thanks. <p></p><i></i>

[Frank Miranda]

The reliance on cavalry over infantry seems to have ebbed and flowed with each imperial administration but the importance of infantry continued well into the late BE. If you're looking for infantry types, I suggest Nicephorus' <em>On Skirmishing</em> and <em>Military Precepts</em>. He places a heavy emphasis on a majority infantry composition (and followed through).<br>
<br>
Although some emperors preferred more cavalry (like John I, who took slightly more cavalry then infantry into Bulgaria), you still find infantry being emphasized at least as late as 1025. Basil II's <em>On Campaign Organization</em> would be helpful here (ironic too, when you think that he presided over the formation of the Varangians who became such a powerful cavalry force).<br>
<br>
Treadgold mentions that the Eastern and Western branches of the cavalry tagmata were so large (some 24,000) that they could handle many missions on their own- perhaps this is why there is so much reference material on them?<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=frankmiranda>Frank Miranda</A> at: 7/20/04 5:33 am<br></i>

[Anonymous]

Looking at amazon, I've been unable to track down any of these books. Know where I might find them? <p></p><i></i>

[Frank Miranda]

Sorry- I'm spoiled due to my access to UCLA's library and tend to forget that alot of my resources aren't easily available to the general public (or in English!). If you don't have access to a university library than try Treadgold's <em>Byzantium and Its Army, 284-1081</em> which will cover at least part of the period you are looking into.<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Crispvs]

Regarding Varangians, I've been led to believe for a long time that after 1066 the Varangian Guard was largely made up of dispossessed English thegns, who are generally seen as some of the best infantry of the time.<br>
<br>
Crispvs <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

If you are still interested in information on this subject, then just reply to this post.<br>
<br>
I have a lot of information about the Byzantine army and in particular the period that you mentioned. A good single source for this era is "Sowing the Dragon's Teeth" by Eric McGee, which includes side by side Greek and English copies of the main military manual of the 11th Century plus McGee's detailed explanation of how the manual applied to the specific military operations of the times.<br>
<br>
The Byzantine military of the 11th Century is considered one of the most aggressive and powerful of the long history of this institution. It had both domestic and foreign elements of both cavalry and infantry.<br>
<br>
Perry <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Sounds good. I think I'll try to pick it up. What do you think of the Osprey books on the period? <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Doc,<br>
<br>
I have copies of the two Osprey books written by Ian Heath and consider both to be good introductions to the Byzantine military. I prefer John Haldon's other books to his Osprey titles and found the Michael Whitby book short on content of the type that I want to study. My own areas of interrest are arms, armour, tactics, unit organisation and composition.<br>
<br>
Please note that I meant McGeer not McGee for the name of the author of "Sowing the Dragon's Teeth".<br>
<br>
Perry <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

"Regarding Varangians, I've been led to believe for a long time that after 1066 the Varangian Guard was largely made up of dispossessed English thegns, who are generally seen as some of the best infantry of the time."<br>
<br>
Hi Crispus, a quote from the <em>Orderic Vitalis</em>, p. 147<br>
"...the Normans had pressed so hard on the Englishmen that the Emperor moved them to Byzantium and made them into his life-guards..."<br>
<br>
The Varangians were not cavalry, they were infantry or mounted infantry. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=danielraymondhoward>Daniel Raymond Howard</A> at: 8/17/04 12:44 am<br></i>

[Anonymous]

Just an observation, but the displaced English weren't cavalry either. The wealthier nobles and the huscarls typically rode to battle, but dismounted when they fought.<br>
<br>
Tom <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

I think that was Crispus' point. To demonstrate that the Varangians were largely dispossessed English thegns supports the claim that the Varangians could not have been cavalry. They operated as either infantry or mounted infantry. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=danielraymondhoward>Daniel Raymond Howard</A> at: 8/16/04 6:27 am<br></i>

[Anonymous]

I shall look through my references to confirm the use of horses by the Varangian Guard. It is possible that they rode to the battlefield and then dismounted to fight.<br>
<br>
Perry <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Found a little here. Mr Lowe's research is usually very thorough.<br>
<br>
www.angelfire.com/empire/...Armour.htm<br>
<br>
Armour and Mobility<br>
<br>
It is likely that an infantry unit in full armour would have been so weighed down that they could not have kept up with the rest of the army, or would have become too exhausted to fight. Emperor Maurice makes provision for even cavalry not to wear armour while on the march unless there was evidence of danger. (Stategikon) However, there is considerable evidence to suggest that the Varangians were mounted infantry.<br>
<br>
Firstly, it was common for Vikings when raiding to steal horses and ride them to raid, but they fought as infantry. In the battle of Maldon the Anglo-Saxons rode to the battlefield but fought on foot. (Bradley pp. 519-20) And at the battle of Dyrrakhion, the Varangians arrived on horseback, but dismounted to fight. (Anna Komnena - Blöndal/Benedikz p. 126)<br>
<br>
Also the fight in 1000 AD between Varangians and Iberians in which 30 men of rank among the Iberians were killed, including their Grand Prince (Asochik of Armenia - ibid . p. 47), began with an argument over a bale of hay:<br>
<br>
<em>“A certain soldier from the Russian infantry was carrying hay for his horse, when one of the Iberians went up to him and took the hay away from him. At this another Russian came running up to help his fellow-countryman, and the Iberian now called for help from his compatriots. . .â€ÂÂ

[Goffredo]

Hi guys<br>
For what I figured out I can say I liked these sites.<br>
<br>
Enjoy<br>
<br>
www.imperiobizantino.com/<br>
www.inicia.es/de/bizantino/ <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=goffredo>goffredo</A> at: 9/20/04 4:22 pm<br></i>

[Anonymous]

Goffredo,<br>
<br>
The second site is no longer active. Has it moved or just become a dead link?<br>
<br>
Perry <p></p><i></i>